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Zeiss without adjustment dials

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 15:33
PaulNZ View Drop Down
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Hi all, I was referred over here from another forum in the hope that you guys could give me some help with a Zeiss scope issue. My problem is this:

A few days ago I purchased a Zeiss Diavari 1.5-6x scope off a New Zealand auction site, unused but without any sales literature and of unknown age. The reason I picked it up was that it came with the particular rail mount system that my father's custom mauser uses, a feature that I've never seen on any scope but the original on the rifle. As that scope is getting tired (coatings are just about shot), we thought this would make a good replacement.

Anyway, scope turned up, perfect condition and excellent optically. Where we ran into a snag (not mentioned in the sellers description of the item) is that the scope only has one turret, and that under the cap is a collection of four screws rather than a dial.






Does anyone know how this scope can be adjusted for elevation and windage, or whether it's possible at all? Is this scope designed only for adjustable mounts (which we don't have), or will turning the screws allow it to be sighted in?

Thanks for all info.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 15:41
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I cannot help you. But I must say that is the dammnest thing I have ever seen. Have you tried contacting Zeis technical via their website?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 16:37
PaulNZ View Drop Down
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Yes, I emailed Zeiss a couple of days ago, still waiting on a reply. I'm also trying to get in contact with the seller, and I've posted this query on two other forums as well. Haven't had a lot of luck so far.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 16:58
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Welcome to The OT, Paul.

 

Paul, there's a guy that hangs out on here that knows a thing or two about Euro's.

I will PM him and see if he can shed some light.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2007 at 20:35
mtapd1296 View Drop Down
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Your scope like many European scopes has an elevation only adjustment and windage adjustments are left in the scope mount. IE: Buehler and Redfield mount and many European rail mounts; I am not sure what the screws pictured control. Probably one screw allows you to reset the dial to zero after sighting in,


Edited by mtapd1296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2007 at 19:08
PaulNZ View Drop Down
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Thanks to everyone who replied, it looks like I'll be either returning the scope to the seller (if possible) or trying to obtain suitable mounts with windage adjustment.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/28/2007 at 22:41
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I would mount the scope up and put it in a sturdy rest. Look throught the scope and have someone turn the screws. See if anything moves.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/29/2007 at 03:45
8shots View Drop Down
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I have spent some time on Google without any luck. The mystery deepens! Please keep us informed on this!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/29/2007 at 08:46
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In an old 1964 catalog Stoeger lists windage adjustable rail mounts for some of their imported rifles.At one time I worked for Stoegers (1957-60). Boy, they were fun years.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2007 at 14:53
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
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Hi

 

This scope does only have elevation adjustment.

The rail was normally supposed for mounting on clawmounts and they have vindage adjustments built in.

 

As you'r fathers rifles already have some kind of mount for this scope, i am quite sure that it have possibility for vindageadjustments to.

 

I would not be afraid of this scope, and as well as I am using some of the most modern state of the art scopes I am also very fond of old time quality.

Keep the scope if it works on your mounts.

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2007 at 19:58
PaulNZ View Drop Down
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Well, it looks like the seller is going to give me a refund on the scope so that'll be the end of it. I did some research into new windage adjustable mounts so that I could use the scope, but most of the options involved machining the original claw recesses off the rifle and starting from scratch - something we don't really want to do. According to the local agent, even those scope mounts based on the claw system with provision for windage have very little adjustment range, and so are almost specific to the scope used in the original build when the mounts were placed on the action (brazed or sweated in this case). He also said that the windage adjustment was dependent on bending the scope tube, because the front claws remain fixed in position?

 

I am curious though, the "turn in bases" that tenxes mentions, these I imagine would require action modification as well?

 

If in the future we can't find a railed scope with both internal windage and elevation adjustments (as the original scope on the rifle has), I think whatever mounting system we go with (and they all seem expensive!) will be based on conventional rings even if the claw mounts are retained on the bottom. That should solve future headaches.

 

Perhaps we might have gone with a different option had we got an exceptional deal on the scope to begin with, but we actually paid a premium for the rail rather than the other way around. Could buy a brand new Zeiss Conquest for the money, in fact.

 

Thanks again for the help.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2007 at 23:38
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PaulNZ

 

Can you please show a picture of the claw mount on the rifle.

I am pretty sure that the gundealer is all wrong.

Almost all claw mounts i have seen have built in vindage adjustment, that is very big.

In the absolutly majority of the claw mounts the front mount have a big dovetail that can be adjusted a lot in each direction.

 

To machine off the claw mount from the gun, remove the rail from the scope and install redfield mounts seems to me like burning a church, that is something you simply don't do.

 

So plese show a picture of the mount, and I will be able to tell you if the mount is including the vindage adjustments.

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2007 at 00:32
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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http://www.snipershide.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat &Number=149230&page=1#Post149230

 

Thought I would post this from Sniper's Hide.

Hope it helps........



Edited by cyborg - August/29/2008 at 01:34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2007 at 10:28
RifleDude View Drop Down
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Good stuff, Cheaptrick!  This really helps to shed light on the mysterious identity... of this scope!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 17:10
PaulNZ View Drop Down
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Well, the scope is back with the seller now and I have a full refund, so that's the end of the problem. Like I said before, if the scope was a bargain it might have been worthwhile trying to get it to work, but it wasn't. Also, my contention with the seller was that the lack of internal windage adjustment should have been mentioned, irrespective of whether the scope could have been adapted to the rifle. We could have gambled that the scope could be fitted to the rifle, but would have lost the opportunity for a refund if it didn't work. Still, it's an interesting topic.

 

Some more info:

 

Unfortunately I don't have photo's to post, as the rifle doesn't stay with me. On a close examination last time I saw the rifle, it does appear that there might be some windage elevation in the rear mount with two opposing screws. I didn't try them though, because Dad wasn't keen on having to resight in his rifle in the middle of the roar (deer mating season - I don't know whether it goes by the same name outside NZ). I can tell you that there is definitely no adjustment in the front mount - the claw recesses are cut into a band forward of the front receiver ring, and the claw mount is one solid piece. There is minimal play in  the fit of the claws to the recesses. I wondered whether the windage adjustment on the rear was just to compensate for any misalignment when the rear claw recess block was brazed/soldered on, because with a solid front mount any movement would have to torque the scope, correct?

 

You also have to remember that the scope which came originally with the rifle (a fixed 4x marked "NORUS", which we believe to be of Zeiss manufacture based on similarities with other scopes) has both windage and elevation turrets, so there was no real need for windage adjustable bases when the rifle was built.

 

According to Zeiss, the manufacture date of the now returned scope was ~1970. Also, the tube diameter was 30mm rather than 26mm.

 

I have to ask, how well can a rifle be sighted in solely using windage adjustable mounts without internal adjustment for fine tuning? It can't be easy to move the point of impact precisely, perhaps less than an inch at 100m, using opposing screws in the scope mount?

 

And finally, does any manufacturer nowadays offer a scope with these rails, but turrets for both windage and elevation? The original scope is still going to need replacing some time in the future.

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 17:28
RifleDude View Drop Down
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Originally posted by PaulNZ PaulNZ wrote:

And finally, does any manufacturer nowadays offer a scope with these rails, but turrets for both windage and elevation?

 

Swarovski SR series:

http://www.swfa.com/c-896-swarovski-sr-swarovski-rail-rifles copes.aspx

Zeiss and S&B have also offered W&E scopes with rails as well, though I'm not sure whether this is a current option.



Edited by RifleDude
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 23:26
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
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Hi

 

Here is some pictures of a Zeiss Zielmulti mounted on claw mounts on a BRNO m21 rifle in 8x60S.

The scope is lacking vindage adjustment, like almost ALL scopes prior to 1945-1950 did in Europe.

Here is rings instead of a rail but the principle is the same.

 

You cannot use the modern rails as both swarovski and Zeiss have their own rails on specific dimensions, you need to get a hold of an older sight. You can find loads and loads of them at ebay.de

If you do a search there the scope is zielfernrohr on german.

 

Zeiss mounted on the gun, as you can see no vindage adjustments on the scope.

 

The scope is adjusted on the mounts with the two opposing screws.

 

The front mount is dovetailed in to the action, sometimes when there is longer scopes the dovetail sits a a solderd piece on the barrel. But regardless where it sits, it can be drift adjusted sideways.

Nearly all have this feature, but there is a few that don't have it.

 

As ═ said this way of mounting scopes was the way to do it in the past, you can sight the scope in as well with the screws on the mount as on the scope, but it takes longer time.

 

When you look for a scope on that gun, you almost must buy a scope that have similar length as the previous scope, as the front mount on the scope is mounted on the front of the scope.

Another option you have is to buy any modern scope and have a gunsmith to mount it on you'r claw mounts with rings. The problem is just that it will get expensive.

A new claw mount on a rifle usally cost 800 dollars to buy and get mounted here, and a half claw mount usally cost half of it.

When buying the parts they comes in the white and does not fit togheter, so there is really plenty of work for the gunsmith, the gunsmith that not is used to claw mounts should not work with them either.

 

What did you pay for the returned scope?

 

Regards Technika

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2007 at 03:15
PaulNZ View Drop Down
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Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

Another option you have is to buy any modern scope and have a gunsmith to mount it on you'r claw mounts with rings. The problem is just that it will get expensive.



This might be possible, but the front claw location corresponds to the objective bell of any reasonably sized scope. It would take either a ring around the objective of the new scope rather than the tube (are these available? - I've seen them on Mauser 66's only), or perhaps an offset extension between the ring and claw to bring the ring far enough back to grip the scope tube.

The now returned scope was NZ$1200. In context, a brand new Leupold VX3 2.5-8x36 can be had for around NZ$800. The value in the scope, for us, was being able to mount it straight up (we thought )

Edited to add: Just checked the price of a new model Zeiss Diavari - over NZ$2000


Edited by PaulNZ
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2007 at 14:42
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Hi

 

Claw mounts are produced by Recknagel, Apel and i think Akah.

Recknagel is the best.

But it's important for you to know that older claw mounts are often not possible to mount on together with newer parts.

Anyway , all claw mounts require a very good gunsmith to mount it togehter.

 

You will fore sure be able to mount a new scope on your uppers if you just buy a scope of the correct length

 

 

Regards Technika

 

 

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