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Zeiss Victory Diavari 3-12x56

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2009 at 18:34
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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For the past several years, I have posted repeatedly here that I did not like FFP scopes for hunting.

Today, I began to see the error in that unilateral statement.

I looked a Victory with a #8 (plex) FFP and really didn't like it.  At 12X, a significant portion of the site picture was the heavy plex reticle posts.  The glass was great but the reitcle sucked.

I cam across a #42 reticle, a normal #4 with the addition of a second aiming point.  Without the heavy post on top, this is great for long-range OR for low-light.

I am now a convert: for some applications, I like FFP on hunting scopes ASSUMING the reticle is the right configuration.

Pictures will follow.

As a "general rule" I still prefer FFP on tactical guns and SFP on hunting guns; however, if you have need of a low-light, all-around hunting scope, I higly recommend the Zeiss Diavari with LoTutec - it is freak'in great!


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - February/14/2009 at 18:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 02:07
opticsmike View Drop Down
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But I was under the impression that to have a scope configuration with both a FFP reticle and a SFP reticle, you have to get a Victory Varipoint with at least one additional glass element rather than a Victory Diavari. Again this is from my understanding, but to have a reticle in both focal planes is a compromise in resolution, contrast, and light transmission. Although the compromise is slight, it was still noticeable in tests. That is why I went with the Victory Diavari with a small illuminated #66 FFP reticle. It is acceptable at full magnification, yes it could be a little smaller, but at least I know that I still have no-compromise optics. I also read that illuminated reticles in the second focal plane wash out the image more in very dark scenery. This is all based on things that I have read, a lot from these forums, but without any direct experience from my own comparisons. If there were no compromise, I would prefer a non-magnifying FFP fine plex reticle or really just a tiny dot. I don't like to clutter the reticle with ranging markings. I much prefer to use BDC knobs and so I had them retrofitted by Ziess from factory.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 02:18
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One more note, one thing that I don't like about FFP reticles is that they are bass ackwards. In a tactical situation you need to easily see the reticle at low zoom, the reticle should be large. In a ranged target situation, you need to easily see the target at high zoom, so the reticle should be small. Rather than the reticle getting larger at high power, I wish it would get larger at low power but no scope does that. I wonder if I should have gotten the #60 SFP reticle instead of the #66 FFP reticle. I would have had I not read that lighted SFP reticles wash out very dark scenes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 03:22
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It depends upon the reticle design and how you use them.  The generalization that they are "bass ackwards" is only true on paper.

With many designs #4 or plex type designs, you have thick, heavy outer posts that are so thick they're even thicker than a heavy duplex on low power.  And on low power, in a "tactical situation" they have converged to the center of the reticle which really draws your eye to the aiming point quickly.  If the reticle looked like that on high power at longer ranges, those heavy posts would be covering much of the target and would be annoying.  But on high power they pull back out of the way, away from the target toward the edges of the FOV where you can ignore them and use the fine center lines to aim.

It's something that sounds counter-intuitive on paper but often "seems right" in actual use.  For example, if you use a SFP mildot (to keep dimensions the same) scope calibrated at 10X and one calibrated at 20X, on low power in low light at close range, the latter stinks in comparison.  While, technically, its reticle is "twice as big" the heavy posts are out of the way and no longer do you any good.  All you have to aim with is the thin lines in the center and twice as big may not be big enough.  The former, while the lines are only 1/2 as thick, you can still easily see the heavy posts and the opening between them is small enough you can put them on your target and pull the trigger at close range.

But as I said, it depends upon the design--they're too different to generalize.  Many FFP reticles simply are too small to be good at low power in low light.

Of course good illumination can negate that problem for both FFP and SFP scopes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 05:17
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Very good points. I personally couldn't live with any of my scopes being non-illuminated. Maybe I shouldn't have spent so much to have illuminated scopes and instead gotten night vision. I obviously don't hunt, I just simply like to have capable arms.

Anyway, I'm considering sighting my Diavari #66 reticle at the top of the center cross so that maybe I can get a just bit tighter shots at long range. My favorite reticle I have on a scope is an just inverted V with the point of the V being the target point. It's very effective for long range and the entire V serves quick target acquisition very well for close range. I really wish that reticle were available for the Diavari. If it were, I swear I'd pay another $500 for it.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 09:50
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uso has the chevrons you describe as a reticle choice, but don't think they will put one in a zeiss - just kidding. In my experience illumination wash out is more related to certain brands than others.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 10:21
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Originally posted by opticsmike opticsmike wrote:

But I was under the impression that to have a scope configuration with both a FFP reticle and a SFP reticle, you have to get a Victory Varipoint with at least one additional glass element rather than a Victory Diavari.
 
This is true, but that's not what RC is referring to.  He never said he had both FFP and SFP in the same scope like Varipoint.  He has the FFP reticle 3-12X56 Diavari.  His comments about SFP reticles are in reference to what he always preferred in the past and this scope has changed his mind about FFP reticles for hunting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 13:39
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Interesting opticsmike.  What brand scope was that?  Sounds like some old Russian reticle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 13:49
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Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

Interesting opticsmike.  What brand scope was that?  Sounds like some old Russian reticle.
 
The current Zeiss Victory Varipoint series.  They use the same optics as the Victory Diavaris, except with an extra lens element for the dual plane reticles.  The illuminated dots in these scopes are in the SFP.  The posts surrounding the illuminated dots (on reticles with posts) are in the FFP.   So, The FFP outer bars provide the constant spacing for crude range estimation, but the SFP center dot maintains a small size at high magnification.  The only Varipoint model this doesn't apply to is the one with # 0 reticle, which has the dot only.  The other advantage to this scope series vs. the standard illuminated Diavari is the illumination intensity range allows it to be used during daylight hours as well as low light and the dot intensity supposedly adjusts automatically for prevailing light conditions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 13:49
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It's a beta lighted Hensoldt 4x on a BLITS mount, but the beta light is all used up and so it's no longer illuminated. I've been told that a refill is unavailable. The reticle is actually an inverted V with a circle around it with the tip of the inverted V directly in the center of the circle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 13:52
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Oh, I'm sorry Jon, I thought you were referring to the dual plane reticles in the Zeiss Varipoints.  I didn't realize you were referring to the inverted "V" reticle in the Hensoldt.  Sorry for the confusion.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 13:56
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RifleDude, does that mean that the Varipoint with the #0 reticle does not have the extra glass element?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 16:40
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Originally posted by opticsmike opticsmike wrote:

RifleDude, does that mean that the Varipoint with the #0 reticle does not have the extra glass element?
 
It would stand to reason that would be the case, but I don't know for sure.  With the single dot only, there would be no need for the extra element, since the dot is in SFP and there's nothing in FFP.
 
I wouldn't think the extra element makes that much of a difference, though.  We are, after all talking about Zeiss Victory series scopes, which are all superb.  I would think the average person in normal conditions wouldn't be able to see the difference between Diavari and Varipoint.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 18:39
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Sorry for any confusion, my new scope is FFP only, not FFP and SFP.

Had it at the range today, still like it.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2009 at 23:38
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So which FFP reticle did you get that you like? You mentioned the #42 but that is a dual focal plane reticle.
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