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Yet Another AR-15 Scope Question |
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mncarbine
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/19/2010 Location: Minnesnowta Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Posted: April/20/2010 at 11:08 |
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I have been reading forums for days now on this subject and still don't know which way to go, but figured this was the definitive source so here I am.
I am 60yo guy, i.e. I don't have young eyes. I am seeking a scope for my new Rock River 16" 5.56. I intend to primarily target shoot in the 100-200 yard range. Part of me is old school and wants a traditional scope, but I know the military puts a red dot on the M4 which is the comparable gun. For more tactical purposes, that might be a better choice, but for accurate target shooting, is glass with a crosshair or a red dot better? Seems I have narrowed things down to two options unless you have a better idea for me: 1. If I was to go red dot, there seem to be several choices: a. the Aimpoint 9000SC 2MOA seems like a viable option, but is about double the price b. The Vortex SPARC which is about half the price of the Aimpoint and priced closer to the scopes below 2. In a traditional scope I have been considering several 3-9X40 scopes: a. Nikon Buckmaster with either the standard cross hair or BDC b. Bushnell Elite 4200 which only comes with standard crosshair c. Burris Fullfield II with Ballistic Plex reticle These scopes are all within a few dollars of each other, so it isn't a price decision unless you suggest I get a red dot. A lot of people like the Burris mount as well as the Larue, but I can't see how much difference there can be with one vs. the other? Thanks so much! |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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You may want to look at something like this
it has nice close quaters ability and longer range accuracy that a red dot does not. Unless your in a hurry i would wait on a 1-4 though because of the SS 1-4 that will be released soon (hopefully) There is a thread about it here.
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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As far as mounting, I love the PEPR.
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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neilbilly
Optics Master Joined: February/07/2010 Location: Sweeny TX Status: Offline Points: 999 |
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Why not get both????........ well sort of. http://swfa.com/Vortex-3-9x40-Crossfire-Rifle-Scope-P11245.aspx http://swfa.com/Burris-3-9x40-Fullfield-II-Rifle-Scope-P10984.aspx Hawke also makes the night eye series that has some options you might or might nnot be interested in. I've never looked through one of their scopes so can't suggest one, but they do look like they they would fit the bill. If you can fit it in the budget that Burris would be a really nice scope, but if not Vortex makes a good scope. |
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If God didn't want me to play with it, he'd of made my arms shorter.
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mncarbine
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/19/2010 Location: Minnesnowta Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Wow, you guys are fast... I wrote basically the same message more than a day ago on the M4Carbine forum and although I got a lot of views, not a single response yet.
That Bushnell has less power and twice the price of the models I was considering. Thanks for the reply on the Burris mount. Lew |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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I just bought this scope to go on a 24" varmit AR and it may work as well for you and the price it good. Decent low end power and topend as well at 10x. The 50mm will allow plenty of light for you to at at 60yrs old that may be a good thing.
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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ccoker
Optics Master Joined: February/13/2008 Location: Austin, TX Status: Offline Points: 2041 |
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if you are wanting to primarily shoot targets from 1-200 yards, a red dot is not what you want, they are meant for fast and up close action, of course you can make center of mass hits at 200 yards but they are not for target shooting..
I would go with a standard scope, 3-9 is a good all around choice or maybe something like a 2.5-10x42 Nikon Monarch when you say target shooting, are you trying to put 10 shots in the same hole at 200 yards? if so, you need more magnification and great glass for resolution what's your budget? |
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www.TacticalGunReview.com
Pro Staff - Silencer Shop http://tacticalgunreview.com |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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As should add that i do plan on using the above scope in conjunction with a fastfire mounted on a picatinny rail scope top for close in target acquisition eventually. it may also be an option you can explore.
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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mncarbine
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/19/2010 Location: Minnesnowta Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Yikes....those are two scopes with similar specs, but a very wide price difference.
I did consider some scopes that were a combo, like those two. They don't tell you the MOA of the dot? It seemed when talking about an Aimpoint most people suggested the 2MOA over the 4. Neither of those two scopes tell you what the comparative size is of the dots? The other consideration is the swag. The Bushnell has the fleece coat and the Burris I mentioned has some free binoculars. Don't know if the free binoc offer applies to that Burris. I have yet to see a sample where the red dot is used for target shooting. Like the Burris example, it has a deer in the site, and probably at some distance based on the sight picture. How would those scopes do when shooting holes in paper? My total experience is a 2-9X Weaver on my .22LR :) Thanks for the suggestions and the quick replies...amazing! |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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Here is a picture of a M2 sight picture off this thread http://opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=22824&PN=3 similar to the 9000
Compliments of Helo
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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neilbilly
Optics Master Joined: February/07/2010 Location: Sweeny TX Status: Offline Points: 999 |
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If I could have a dot hide all my holes at 200 yards I'd need a moment and some tissue. I looked on Vortex's web site and it doesn't say how large the dot is but I would think it's 1-2 moa which is what 2-4 inches at 200 yards? I wouldn't be ashamed of a 4 inch group at 200 yards. I'm sure lots of people can out shoot me, but the older I get the less I care what others can do. SVT is going to give us a good review of the Vortex before too much longer. I for one will be very interested in his findings. |
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If God didn't want me to play with it, he'd of made my arms shorter.
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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Yes indeed As soon as it arrives i will work on a very indepth review. Not only regular target and all but also with the use of the ND3!
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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cpwomack
Optics Journeyman Joined: January/29/2009 Location: Chattanooga Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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I have been using one of the Burris Timberline 3-9 scopes on my plinker AR. Glass is not bad for the price ($119 @ SWFA) and it is short and compact and does not look out of place on a 16" carbine. I have it mounted in the PEPR and couldn't be happier, works great for killing paper.
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mncarbine
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/19/2010 Location: Minnesnowta Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Wonder why the standard Monarch is $300 and the BDC or Mil-DOT bumps it up another $100?
I was hoping to get a scope and mount for $300 but I don't have a fixed amount. I am notorious for seeking out bang-for-the-buck scopes. That makes the Vortex very tempting, not to mention they are from Wisconsin, my neighboring state. But I don't want to sacrifice $100-200 for an inferior scope, if in fact they are inferior? I appreciate the feedback on the red dot-only being for quick acquisition which is as I assumed. Does that apply equally when it is a traditional scope with a red dot like the two mentioned above? Does the red dot help aim it, and is there an issue with red dots and older eyes? Would like to have an overall use carbine. I don't intend to go to war with it nor do I want to nail spikes at 500 yards. I thought the 1-4X scopes might be too light on magnification for my use, although popular on ARs. That is why I was considering the 3-9 or the 2.5X10. Thanks again! |
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cpwomack
Optics Journeyman Joined: January/29/2009 Location: Chattanooga Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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You could look at the Monarchs on the sample list! They are significantly cheaper. I have one with the BDC reticle and while it is a good scope, the reticle is a little busy for me.
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mncarbine
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/19/2010 Location: Minnesnowta Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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That is what I thought it would look like. Also called co-witness. Still seems that the combination of iron sights and red dot or red dot alone is more for "thing" shooting than target shooting.
I suspect my handgun or M1 carbine would be suitable for close in work, and I think in most of those cases you are pointing and shooting and not even using a sight. I think the AR carbine will be used more for punching holes in paper, but I don't want a scope that is too huge or unable to shoot shorter ranges. Thanks! |
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mncarbine
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/19/2010 Location: Minnesnowta Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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As far as the Burris line goes, I was looking at a step up from the Timberline, i.e. the FullField II. I know what you mean about "out of place" on a 16" barrel, but then I am not building it for eye appeal or to please someone else :)
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neilbilly
Optics Master Joined: February/07/2010 Location: Sweeny TX Status: Offline Points: 999 |
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The timberline for $120 is a great scope. It's compact, has nice clear glass and good eye relief. In short it's the best $120 scope I've ever seen. "It's actually higher usually, but currently on sale" Mine is mounted on a Ruger Mini-30. http://swfa.com/Burris-3-9x32-Timberline-Rifle-Scope-P11002.aspx I own 2 Vortex Diamondbacks and they are very good. I looked side by side through the Diamondback and Nikon Buckmaster because I own one of each. The vortex is every bit as good as the Nikon, and was over $100 less money. |
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If God didn't want me to play with it, he'd of made my arms shorter.
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cpwomack
Optics Journeyman Joined: January/29/2009 Location: Chattanooga Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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With a magnified optic you will not see the front sight, just a shadow at the lower powers. On my carbine with the 3-9, I don't notice it at all. I had a red dot, never got the hang of it. 10 years in the Marines (1993-2003) and we were never issued any like they are now. I prefer open sights to red dots.
3-9 and 2-7 are not bad up close. I have a 2-7 on my R700 and have no problem making shots on deer up close here in TN.
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cpwomack
Optics Journeyman Joined: January/29/2009 Location: Chattanooga Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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If you are shooting off-hand a longer heavier scope can sometimes make a carbine feel front heavy, but all you are doing is shooting paper, then it should't bother you. |
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