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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 09:27
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So I'm kinda new to the whole looking for scope thing...we were issued scopes in the Marine Corps so I've never really needed to look for one.  Well now I'm interested and have been looking around for a few months now and have stumbled across the XOTIC web site and I'm curious.  Are they going to be for sale again soon?  I read that SWFA will be the only distributor and was just looking for some more insight.  This might be an old dead topic but please give this noob a little help.  Thanks in advance
Dean
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 12:36
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Dean,
I have been waiting, for a while, on the XOTIC sniper scope.  I have been told that there are a few around and that SWFA will carry them but the executives of XOTIC are holding up production.  IDKW.  Maybe there is some new information and your thread will open it up and make it public...
 
 
Yippee   Welcome to the OT, by the way.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 18:19
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Question Who Knows.   I'm pretty happy with the price and quality of the 3-9x42 Super Sniper.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 19:11
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They made their first scope to spec. for the USMC SSDS contract.  They submitted ten test units to the trials and sold us roughly 200 to recoup their cost.
 
They started on a new scope for the Army and half way through scrapped it due to new emerging technologies.  I don't know all the details but I think two scopes are coming out of this.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2009 at 18:51
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err...so is there an expected time or date that this will be available? If someone has one "just floating around" and is interested in sell it in these hard economic times Big Smile feel free to pm me and we can get something together!

Semper FI
Dean
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2009 at 22:54
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welp...any good word?
im about to just cave and go with the weaver ffp mil dot for like 700 bucks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 14:46
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I'd hold of on the Weaver until you see some reviews.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 14:48
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Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

I'd hold of on the Weaver until you see some reviews.

Are the Weaver FFP scopes already shipping?

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 14:49
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We've had them for a couple of weeks now.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 14:53
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Any chance of one of them being available for a Test Drive?

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 15:06
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Not until supply meets demand.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 15:23
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Sounds fair.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 14:55
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

I'd hold of on the Weaver until you see some reviews.
 
whats wrone with the weavers?  I hear theyre pretty solid.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 15:46
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Here is what info  I have regarding the Weaver Tactical:

 

4-20 = 50MOA

3-15 = 60MOA

 

These mildot scopes are graduated in MOA and the detents are 1/4 MOA. Detent clicks on the adjustment turrets are .25MOA (this  0.26 inches so very nearly 1/4" at 100 yards)

 

Eye relief is 4in at 4x and 3.9in at 20x

 

Parallax is 25 yards to infinity.

------------------------------------------------------

 My assessment is this:

 

Weaver made the same mistake that Trijicon did with the TR23 series when they designed these scopes, of not putting sufficient internal adjustment in them to get a

.308

bullet to a thousand yards while having a 100 yd zero. Take for example a 4.5-14x50 Leupold Mk4 has 100 moa of internal adjustment or an Nightforce 3.5-15x50 has  110 moa of elevation.  I realize that most police sniper work is 60 to 120 yds but if you are interested in the military market or the civilian tactical competition/ target shooting market--guys who understand trajectory are looking for more internal adjustment.  While you can use a plus 20 or plus 30 moa Badger Ordnance base on some rifles you still may not have the adjustment to be able to dial in correction from 100 yd to 1000 yd which is what  guys expect in that type of optic.

With a scope that has 50 moa of internal adjustment if a flat base was used that's half above and half below, in theory, so you have 25moa up to work with.

With a 100 yd zero it should take about 26.7moa to get to 800 yds, 33moa to get to 900yds and 40moa to get to 1000 yds shooting  GM308M2  Federal Gold Medal Match 175 SMK at 2600 fps. By using a plus 20 moa Badger base it becomes almost workable if you are lucky enough to be able to sight a 100 yd zero with that 5moa that is left of downward travel,  but a plus 30 moa base throws you 5moa over at 100 in either case working at the outer limits of adjustment for very long is not a good plan. If on the other hand you designed the scope with 70moa or more of internal adjustment none of this would be an issue and the 3-15 model with 60moa is very close to having enough adjustment - not a lot to spare but well worth a try as the price is a good value.  The eye relief sounds very generous as does parallax.

Future generations should also consider using 1/10 mil clicks rather than 1/4 moa clicks. Not sure if these are FFP or second focal plane, but the trend is toward FFP  mil / mil in tactical scopes.  An upgrade to the mil dot reticle would be an improvement also.

 
ATK advises:
   

Just wanted to pass along to you we are coming out with a higher end tactical line of scopes for mid to late season 2010 per a conversation I just had with Tom. I cannot provide you with any details yet on these as this information is unavailable but will have a much broader adjustment range as you are looking for and will be first focal plane. We are also releasing a proprietary mil dot reticle in 1st focal plane.

 

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 15:47
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Meanwhile back in the real world you can own one of these today and never regret having purchased it.
SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope Mil-Dot SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope
Stock # - SS10X42M
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • OK for .50 cal
  • 1/4 MOA
$419.95 
Add SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope to Cart 
SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope Mil-Dot SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope
Stock # - SS10X42HD
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rear Focus
  • OK for .50 cal
  • .10 Mrad
  • HD Model
$799.95 
Add SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope to Cart 
SWFA SS 16x42 Tactical Riflescope Mil-Dot SWFA SS 16x42 Tactical Riflescope
Stock # - SS16X42
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rear Focus
  • OK for .50 cal
  • 1/4 MOA
$319.95 
Add SWFA SS 16x42 Tactical Riflescope to Cart 
SWFA SS 20x42 Tactical Riflescope Mil-Dot SWFA SS 20x42 Tactical Riflescope
Stock # - SS20X42
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rear Focus
  • OK for .50 cal
  • 1/4 MOA
$279.95 
Add SWFA SS 20x42 Tactical Riflescope to Cart 
SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical Riflescope Mil-Dot SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical Riflescope
Stock # - SS39X42
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • OK for .50 cal
  • 0.1 MRAD
$599.95 
Add SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical Riflescope to Cart
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 16:10
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From my experience 65 MOA is the minimum you need to reach 1000 yards and have a 100 yard zero with a .308.  A 20 MOA base is needed like you said.  Things do not always work out evenly with the way the scope is mounted so in some cases a little less may still work. 

Some of these companies really are screwing the pooch with these scopes, really makes  you wonder why.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 16:26
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The deal is they just dont get it.  They say how far do police snipers shoot.   Usually 60 to 80 yds so what do they want in a scope. Reliable Repeatable adjustments and variable power.  They want to under price the guys who have been selling scopes " Leupold Mk4" but they dont see any need to make a scope for 1000 yds because everyone they know just shoots 100 yds or less.  Only the military practices shooting further and most of the time they dont do that they set up a 25 meter target with small silouettes that represent what size a man would be out to 600 meters but  they never dial in the correction on their sight to correspond to the distance - all the targets are shot with the sights on at the zero distance  M16A2  = 300 meters.
 
Even a 50 moa is plenty to shoot 300 meters so they do not see a need to spend what it takes to build more adjustment into the scope.   The Nikon Tacticals were short on adjustment also.   The Sightron SIII  has a good amount of adjustment and the Super Sniper has way more than anyone could even remotely hope for it's like they were built with enough adjustment to put it on a mortar.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 16:33
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The Trijicon one made me laugh.  They build ACOGs with a reticle drop out to 800 yards for a .223.  Yet they build a precision rifle scope with only 50 MOA.  lol  WTF

Those would probably be a fantastic scope if they had 80 MOA instead
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 16:36
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i got a come-up chart for my fiocchi exacta .30-06 rounds and at 1000 meters i need 148 clicks.  thats approx 37 MOA.  wouldnt a weaver tatical work then? im confused....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 16:48
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Yea I spoke with them over that and I just did the same at ATK on the Weavers actually both companies have taken that to heart and are in the process of designing greatly improved tactical scopes.  In a couple of years there will be some really really cool scopes come out. Or what I am really wondering about is like with cameras & digital cameras and video cameras when we are going to see the civilian version of the active video targeting scope.  I have seen a photo of Chinese soldiers with helment mounted video that feeds from a video - scope on their rifle.   We are behind the 8 ball on this stuff.  Just take a video camera out in very low light and turn it on you can see like its night vision.  All it takes is super imposing a reticle that is zeroed.  We have the technology but its not seen in the civilian market.  I know that my fifty thousand dollars worth of high end camera equipment turned to almost no value over night with the digital transition and I'm thinking video based rifle scopes are not far down the road likely with computer balistic programs built in. Think about that one Chris  the SUPER SNIPER VIDEO TARGETING SYSTEM with optional helment mounted view screen.  Just hold the rifle around the corner and shoot no need to expose yourself.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 17:49
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I'm turning down a smoking deal for a Nikon Monarch 4-16 mil dot because it is only 40MOA of adjustment.  With a 20MOA rail or the Burris rings with inserts is that even possible?  Sad thing as it was new for $330....
 
Closer to grabbing a Vortex Viper 6.5-20 now....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 18:12
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What about a Sightron S3 if you want more power .   I have gone over this stuff again and again looking for something that would work other than another Leupold Mk4 that is less expensive than a Nightforce.  What I finally did was order one of the 10x HD Super Snipers and also order a 20x Super Sniper.  I have had a 20x in the past and the only down side to it is in low light it will look rather grey because of the small exit eye pupil not letting much light through but same same with any other scope same power and same objective size. I really suggest you buy one of the 10x HD scopes before your are saying boy I wish I had done that while they still had some of the 200 scopes that are all there will ever be in the public sector. If you want to get out of all this for less money pick up one of the othe SS models and you are back in the price range of that Monarch but with 120 moa of adjustment and real tactical knobs  10x ,  16x  0r  20x  or spend a little more and get the variable which I wish I had a dozen of.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 19:12
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thread hack...anyway why wouldnt the weaver work if i zero my scope to 100 yds i would only need 37 moa with fiocchi .30-06 exacta match.  why wouldnt a weaver work that has 50 moa for the 4-20 zoom?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 20:08
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From what I've learned with 50MOA total adjustment, if you use 10MOA canted base or ring inserts you still have to use reticle hold offs  to reach 1,000 yards.  If you use 20MOA base or ring inserts you put your self right by the edge of the scopes limit and your adjustments might not work out so good.
 
I think 60MOA on up would just make life easier.  You could even use the third mil-dot down to add 10.32MOA to whatever you have dialed but at 1,000 yards that mil-dot covers a 7.2 inch diameter circle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2009 at 20:31
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NO  To begin with 50moa of internal adjustment means 25 moa up and 25 moa down not 50 moa up and 50 moa down, and  that will vary with rifle  what if you sight in and you only have 20moa up with a 100 yd zero.  This is where an angled  PLUS  20 MOA or PLUS 30 MOA base comes into play --- what you take out in moa from below you add  to the moa above.    Can you see that if you have 50 total and 25 above and you add plus 30 you now have gone up 5 more than 25 so even if it would have been dead on with a flat base a 30 moa will put you 5moa  high at 100 and if its not perfect you are off even more.  You have no way to know until you put it on and shoot it.   But there is another issue:
 
You might  come back and tell me in 6 months how your scope broke because you were always using it at or close to the limit of how far it would adjust. 
Ever have a wind up watch - what happens when you wind them too much.
 
If you wouldnt turn the car on by allowing the starter to grind and grind and grind because it would eventually break it then  run that same thought process through your head about the ultimate limits of adjustment of other machines like scopes.
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