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X-Bolt vs Sako 85-my take

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2009 at 19:06
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This comparison between my Sako 85 Hunter in 270wsm and Browning X-Bolt Medallion 270 Win. may ruffle some feathers but here goes. After looking at X-Bolt's for the last year or so I finally picked up a Medallion in 270 Win last week. I've really liked the way they these X bolts feel. They're light and small and point like a small shotgun. IMO these are the characteristics that can be improved from the guns of the 40's and 50's. The X-bolt is small in the wrist and forearm making it feel even lighter than it really is. The Sako is large in the wrist(larger than any other rifle I own) making it feel bulkier than it is. The Sako has kind of a perch belly feel when carried under the magazine which is partly due to the WSM chambering.

The X bolt uses scope bases with 4 screws per hole. THe Sako uses a proprietary tapered dovetail that is difficult to find good mounts for. I paid $170 for Sako's Optilock bases and rings and when putting on a different scope 2 weeks ago noticed the nylon insert was broke in half. I'm not the first guy that's happened to. Beretta was out of replacements and told me to pack the pieces back in the ring and use it that way. No estimation when inserts will be in stock either. NOT happy with that for $170.

The magazine system is easier, simpler, lighter on the X-bolt using a polymer magazine with the latch being on the front of every magazine. The Sako magazine is excellent construction but not as easy to insert in the dark or with gloves on. I prefer the Browning magazines. The belly of the X Bolt is rounded with the flush magazine inserted. THe Sako is squared off flat and doesn't carry as comfortably for me.

The trigger is actually a draw. They are both excellent triggers that adjust down to an appropriate weight for hunting purposes.

I slightly prefer the tang safety with bolt unlock button of the Browning to the Sako design. The Sako is a slightly smoother bolt but the X-Bolt hasn't been broken it yet. The bolt lift on the Sako is very stiff compared to the X-Bolt.

The fit and finish is a personal preference. The oil finish of the Sako was poorly executed. It doesnt fill the pores and turned a rag brown from stain the first couple times I wiped it off. The Sako stock looks kind of cheap for how much they cost. The checkering on the Browning is sharper, deeper, and not as not as machined cut looking. The Browning is factory bedded. The Sako is not bedded and lacks a true recoil lug. They use a very small lug mated to a steel plate screwed into the stock with 2 wood screws.

Now for the big one...accuracy. The Sako comes from the factory with a 5 shot 1" guarantee. That's about what mine will do with various high quality bullets like Sierra Matchkings/Gamekings/Nosler ballistic tip and handloads with Norma brass. The X-Bolt shoots a little better. Almost half the groups shot in my first range session were little cloverleafs with a number of shots touching @100yds. Sako uses quality hammer forgings and Browning uses a pull button rifling method. Both copper foul about the same and I notice no difference in smoothness when patching the bores.

Bottom line. The Sako barreled action is a work of art. The machining is as good as it gets. Every little screw head and pin in the trigger housing is highly polished. It's a very well mad gun. But the design, shape, weight and function of the Browning are superior for what I want in a big game rifle. The X-Bolt is lighter, smaller, shoots better than the Sako. I could say that about my Tikka T3 too.  The T3 will also outshoot the Sako and is more comfortable to carry in the field. I don't think I'll be buying more Sakos.

I also can't help but mention how much Sako's have risen in price the last few years. The Sako 75's of a few years ago used to be had for $900's. A weak U.S. dollar is not your friend if you like European rifles. The Sako's are now running in the $1350-$1500 range. The Hunter model has been discontinued and the new 85 Classic is selling for $1900. X-Bolt's are in the $650-$900 range and I think they're a better gun in many ways.
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Good post, very informative.  I reload for over 40 rifles and have always found Brownings to be very accurate rifles.  I have a friend who has a Browning 270 Medallion and first load for him worked just fine
 
 
The old-timers used to call Brownings "accurate junk" but I think they are making great guns now.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2009 at 20:17
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The load you have there's my favorite for 270's.  I'm also liking 58.0gr IMR 4831 and 130gr Nosler Ballistic Tips(compressed load).  I've never tried the 140 Gameking in any rifle that didn't like it.
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Good post, very informative.  I reload for over 40 rifles and have always found Brownings to be very accurate rifles.  I have a friend who has a Browning 270 Medallion and first load for him worked just fine
 
 
The old-timers used to call Brownings "accurate junk" but I think they are making great guns now.

i have owned 2 browning rifles myself and know at least 6 people who also own brownings and i must say the accuracy from all of them have been exceptional. two .300winmags one 25-06 one .280 one .270 one 30-06 one .300wsm .270wsm all shot sub moa. i wouldnt shy away from an abolt or an xbolt.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/19/2009 at 03:38
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Very good write up! I may save it for future reference, I like the feel of the X-Bolt also, I looked at the synthetic/stainless...I was not sure how well they shot out of the box or not. So I bought the Sako Finnlight for 1,250 from a place in FL, called Scotts Guns. I thought it was a good buy compared to other places. The little Sako only weighs 6 lbs. , its a 7 08 and I like it alot. It has the fluted 20" barrel, action is very smooth, holds 6 rounds including 1 in the chamber..Its a quick handling rifle for me because its light wt. and short. The synthetic stock has rubber inserts to make the rifle easier to handle, not slippery...It shoots very well, I just bought several boxes of Federal TSX BT, 140gr. My son and I sighted it in and he shot 1.5" groups at 200 by the time we were all done.. I think he could have done better..Me I did worse because Im  not as good of a shot as him, but I stil made a clean shot on a little Buck at 150 so m happy...This is obviously my first Sako, I liked the Finnlight because its very handy and Im old fashioned I guess, I do not like all that plastic on a rifle other than the stock. The entire Finnlight is stainless except for the stock and ya never know I may buy a Laminated stock for it some day.           I also liked the Browning X-Bolt and since you say they shoot so well outa the box,  maybe next time I will buy one of those too. If I can just get these rifles to kick a little less,I would buy another 270 because I really like em. I had a M 70 270 Featherweight years ago and I loved that rifle, killed alot of game with it too. The X-Bolt has kind of a rubbery (and I know its got a name) feel to it and it makes it nice to handle and hold on to, verses the more slick composite stocks...But then you were talking wood stocks anyway...  Im glad you wrote about these rifles, as I will keep the X-Bolt in mind  for the future, very nice feeling and good lookin rifles those Brownings... I have a Kimber 270 WSM Super America, brand new, never been huntin. I think Ive got a buyer for it.. But if I do not I will put a brake on it and the 7 08 as well and hopefully use them both.. Also on the Sako Finnlight I used Talley Mounts and Rings and it went together easily and seems very strong,  Thanks again for the write up, very good information!     Thunbs Up  

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Excellent review! Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/21/2009 at 08:12
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They use the best barrel manufacturer in the EAST.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/21/2009 at 09:52
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Thank-you for the review.  Neighbor had a a-bolt in 300 wsm.  He thought it kicked too much and I thought it shot like a dream.  Beautiful firearm and shot just as well.
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Good review!
 
I like the X-Bolt overall.  Not sure how I feel about the magazine, as I don't care for "plastic" parts on firearms in general, but it looks to be a good design.  I do like the fact the magazine centers the top round for smoother feeding.  I like the overall stock design and feel (minus the odd "style" contour extending from the pistol grip into the stock).  I've had very good accuracy results from other Browning bolt actions I've shot, whether the FN Mauser- or Sako-based actions, the BBR, or A-Bolt.  One of my most accurate hunting rifles is my BBR in 7 mag.  The new 3-lever "Feather Trigger" looks like a good design.  I like the changes they made in the action vs. the A-Bolt.  The bolt unlock button at the root of the bolt handle is a clever design.
 
The X-Bolt looks like a winner to me, though some traditionalists might think it looks a little too radical for their tastes.  My only real reservation with this rifle is the plastic magazine, though it might be one of those things I could learn to like with use if it works well.
 
I guess I got lucky with my Sako 85, as the stock finish, checkering, and wood quality are all first-rate on mine.  In fact, mine has one of the most beautiful pieces of walnut I've ever seen on a production factory rifle, with lots of fiddleback and deeply contrasting figure.  It is also quite accurate.  My only real complaint about my 85 is the rather poor wood to metal fit in the tang area (rather large gap).  I think it has a goofy recoil lug design that I don't quite understand, but it works.  I don't like the fact that there are few scope mounts available for the Sako dovetailed receiver, but I blame that more on the mount manufacturers than Sako, as I think it is a good design.  I don't like the Opti-Lok mounts at all.  I have one Sako 75 with OL's; my other 75 and my 85 both wear Talleys.  I have been totally satisfied with Talley Sako mounts.  Conetrol, S&K, and Leupold make decent Sako mounts as well.  I would choose any of those 4 over the Opti-Loks. 
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Thanks for the kind words everyone. 
 
Ted
 
My 85 has a nice piece of walnut on it too especially on the butt.  What I didn't like about mine was how raw the oil finish was.  It had no luster at all and stain color would come off on mine hands.  Judging from the pictures I've been seeing on Gunbroker of the new "classic" model they've changed the finish so it fills the pores and looks more....well, finished.  I added 2 coats of low gloss Formby's tung oil on mine and it looks/feels much better.   The grain pops now.
 
As for the magazine of the x-bolt it seems like a good design and feeds like butter.  I suppose if there's any longevity problems in the plastic it can be easily replaced.  If that design were made of alloy it would be heavy.  Like you I'm always leary of anything plastic on a gun.
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Really, I think my objection to the use of plastic... excuse me, synthetic materials...on a fine firearm is the fact they just give a look and feel of cheapness to an otherwise nice gun.  I'm a traditionalist at heart.  It even took me a long time to warm up to the concept of synthetic stocks, but I've gotten over that because of the undeniable advantages and the availability of so many truly high quality synthetic stocks.  I haven't quite accepted plastic trigger guards, magazines, scope turrets, etc. yet though.  Truth be told, the majority of the plastic parts in use today on guns probably hold up just as well as other materials on those types of non-stressed parts.  I just don't like plastic parts because... it's plastic!Bucky
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/21/2009 at 17:54
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Really, I think my objection to the use of plastic... excuse me, synthetic materials...on a fine firearm is the fact they just give a look and feel of cheapness to an otherwise nice gun.  I'm a traditionalist at heart.  It even took me a long time to warm up to the concept of synthetic stocks, but I've gotten over that because of the undeniable advantages and the availability of so many truly high quality synthetic stocks.  I haven't quite accepted plastic trigger guards, magazines, scope turrets, etc. yet though.  Truth be told, the majority of the plastic parts in use today on guns probably hold up just as well as other materials on those types of non-stressed parts.  I just don't like plastic parts because... it's plastic!Bucky
I KNEW IT!!!!! You are my brother. HuggerNow... How to break the news to mom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/21/2009 at 17:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/21/2009 at 17:59
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 Excellent 

Is it plastic, synthetic, nylon, or polymer? 
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You guys are hilariousSmile
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Really, I think my objection to the use of plastic... excuse me, synthetic materials...on a fine firearm is the fact they just give a look and feel of cheapness to an otherwise nice gun.  I'm a traditionalist at heart.  It even took me a long time to warm up to the concept of synthetic stocks, but I've gotten over that because of the undeniable advantages and the availability of so many truly high quality synthetic stocks.  I haven't quite accepted plastic trigger guards, magazines, scope turrets, etc. yet though.  Truth be told, the majority of the plastic parts in use today on guns probably hold up just as well as other materials on those types of non-stressed parts.  I just don't like plastic parts because... it's plastic!Bucky


Ditto.

I have a Sako 85 Hunter that I've hunted with for a couple of years.  I like it for the most part but your review, Horsemany, is very fair.  I keep using it because I like the trigger, the bolt lock and the general heft of the rifle. 

Here's a few gripes:

I don't care for the dovetail receiver but was convinced to try Talley QD's and they work well, much better than the Leupold QR's.  The bolt lift is too stiff.  I've taken the bolt apart and cleaned and lubricated it according to the manual.  Mine has been shot enough to ease up but it's not going to happen.  I'm convinced it's all in the design.  The inletting around the tang is poor for a $1,500 rifle.  If not for the X-Bolt magazine look I'd have replaced this Sako last year.


 


Edited by timber - October/28/2009 at 00:37
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Yeah, you could store part of your lunch in there for later.
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My tang looks like that too.  I think they want all the recoil bearing on the steel plate in front but they could sure get a little more precise on that inletting. 
 
I've tried every type of grease or lube I have on the cocking surfaces and mine's not gotten any easier either.  I believe you're right it's a design issue that makes the bolt lift so hard.  The cocking surfaces all appear well polished.
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  Maybe the firing pin spring could be lightened up a bit to help with the bolt lift.
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Originally posted by timber timber wrote:


I don't care for the dovetail receiver but was convinced to try Talley QD's and they work well, much better than the Leupold QR's.  The bolt lift is too stiff.  I've taken the bolt apart and cleaned and lubricated it according to the manual.  Mine has been shot enough to ease up but it's not going to happen.  I'm convinced it's all in the design.  The inletting around the tang is poor for a $1,500 rifle.  If not for the X-Bolt magazine look I'd have replaced this Sako last year.


 
 
That is exactly what I was referring to with my comment about the poor wood to metal fit around the tang.  Mine is the same way, as is all Sako 85's I've seen.  Really, this is my only major gripe with these rifles.  I know why they did it though -- this is a common area for stocks to start cracking on bolt action rifles.  If the tang contacts the stock here, repeated recoil can cause the stock to start cracking directly behind the tang.  This cannot happen if there is clearance between the tang and the wood.  However, they certainly could have reduced the size of the gap so it is a little nicer looking there.  Winchester had a good solution by having the M70 tang overlap the stock rather than being inletted into the stock. 
 
The integral receiver mount dovetails are a pain, but I don't blame Sako as much as mount manufacturers for not providing very many mounts.  The design itself is a good idea, and is very rugged.  I do blame Sako for producing the crappy, overpriced Opti-Lock mounts as their solution.  But, as long as Talley provides mounts for Sako, I'm happy.
 
On the stiff bolt lift, that is a normal, unavoidable byproduct of short lift bolt action designs with 3, 6, or 9 locking lugs on 120-deg centers.  With a short bolt lift of 54 - 60 degrees vs. the standard 90-deg lift of a typical 2-lug action (lugs spaced 180-deg apart), you are having to do the same work in loading up the firing pin spring in a shorter travel distance to cock the action.  Therefore, the cocking cam is steeper and it requires more effort to cock.  Installing a lighter spring is not a good idea, as it could potentially reduce reliability and would increase lock time.   The same issue exists to some extent with all short lift bolt actions, including the Browning A-Bolt and X-Bolt, Weatherby Mark V, T/C Icon, Sauer 200/202, etc.  Some manufacturers use longer bolt handles to provide additional leverage to reduce cocking effort on their short bolt throw actions.  The bolt handle shape and size and angle of the knob or gripping surface of the handle also affects your perception of bolt lift stiffness.  On the plus side, the short bolt throw allows you to mount scopes with big oculars lower on the rifle without bolt handle clearance issues. 
 
There is nothing wrong with your rifle in that regard. 
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I agree with your post except for the bolt lift.  The lift on my X-Bolt, A-Bolt, and Cooper all have 3 lug bolts with approximately half the force required.  My long gone Weatherby Mk V had lighter lift too.  On my Sako 85 you have to almost slap the bolt handle up.  Other 85's I've handled were about the same.
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I know nothing of the Sako 85, but the new Sako 85 Finnlight's Bolt lifts easily and is very smooth...Mine has a synthetic stock so perhaps that why there is no space around the tang on it either. So far Ive been very happy with the 85 Finnlight. The Zeiss 3.5x10x44 scope was very easy to mount using the Talley Rings it ...Its a nice shooter too, Im sorry to hear of these issues you guys are having with your rifles. I guess I must have just gotten lucky as I was looking at a Tikka T-3 or the A7 Sako and I decided to kick it up a notch as to avoid the plastic parts..Since Ive bought it though Ive read so many good things about the Tikka T-3 Stainless that I will probably buy one of those in the future in 6.5x55 Swede because I like what Ive read about the little caliber and the accurate Tikka itself. I wish the Browning X-Bolt came in the 6.5x55.  Ive pretty much gone to stainless rifles as I like the low maintainence and look...I may buy a Laminated stock for the Sako 85 Finnlight though and Im curious if it would have the tang space issue....
 
I think its great we have so many choices today compared to 40 years ago.......
 
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Edited by JF4545 - October/28/2009 at 13:33
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Originally posted by Horsemany Horsemany wrote:

Ted
 
I agree with your post except for the bolt lift.  The lift on my X-Bolt, A-Bolt, and Cooper all have 3 lug bolts with approximately half the force required.  My long gone Weatherby Mk V had lighter lift too.  On my Sako 85 you have to almost slap the bolt handle up.  Other 85's I've handled were about the same.
 
The cocking effort will vary depending on the weight of the firing pin spring and the length and shape of the bolt handle.  However, in general, 3 lug bolts of any type still require more cocking force than 2 lug bolts because the cocking cam is steeper.  I have a Browning BBR (the 9-lug action made pre-A Bolt), 2 Coopers, 1 Sauer 200, 2 Sako 75s, and 1 Sako 85, all of which have the same bolt throw angle.  Cocking force required is sligthly less on the Coopers.  The Sauer has a slightly stiffer bolt lift than the Sakos.  There's really no difference between the rest.
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