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WSM, what do you think cont.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2007 at 11:59
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Rootmanslim said, "I think there is far too much time being spent on subjective opinions and too much of the "they are all paid off" school of thought. Maybe it's possible that these guys are just trying to do a good job for the reading & viewing public with no secret agenda."

You may have a point there. I have been reading shooting magazines for so long and I am in a phase of revolt. There is a lot of good reading in these "rags". Though it has gotten to the point that reading about the latest advance is also the greatest. In some cases maybe, in some cases not. As always the reader can form his own opinion. I don't care right now as it is my own personal revolt.

What is even worse are the multitude of forums out there that espouse that we have to do this or that to make our shooting, hunting, whatever more effective. I say just shoot what you have. I don't point this at the expert shooters out there, of course. They have every reason to go for it. And if some one gets to the point that they can say, " I've mastered what I have and need more", great.

I have seen this more and more at the club, especially with the AR and 1911 shooters. This information they gather is from magazines and the WWW. Most of these shooters are marksman class and for some reason they think  hundreds of dollars in mods are going to make you a master. I say get to expert class first, then you can think about goodies to make master.

To this I'll add all of the 100 yard "riflemen" with 700 yard rifles. Most the guys here are shooters and SVD's WSM groups are outstanding. Yet, I see dozens of schlubs show up at the range with one of these guns that have never shot. I know you can't blame the magazines and the WWW for all of this. But it sure would be nice to see some common sense articles about shooting and hunting. So, I don't blame everything on the media, they are just convenient. As for lambs being led by the nose..................

Okay, rant over

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2007 at 16:42
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I honestly don't think the more reputable gunwriters -- the Boddingtons of the world -- are trying to be intentionally misleading or trying to push an agenda.  I just think they are realists and have to be very careful to not say anything too negative about shooting-related suppliers' products because they realize where their paychecks come from and they'd be fired from their jobs if they did so.  Magazines exist because of advertising dollars. 

 

Having said that, there really are few absolute, universal truths when it comes to gear.  There will always be some subjectivity involved when debating whether or not "Product X" is "better" than "Product Y," because we each place different value on different features of different products.  Product "Z" may be viewed as totally useless to one person and the best thing since the invention of the wheel to another, depending on how it is used and individual preferences, and both camps may be equally valid in their reasoning.  So, a gunwriter, reviewer, or individual on this forum may present a glowing evaluation of something in good faith, complete with facts that are technically correct to support their claims, and another may disagree with their opinions, and that doesn't necessarily mean either is wrong, because both may be evaluating the product with entirely different criteria and budget in mind.  Therefore, it's just not possible to express an opinion on any topic that everyone will always find valuable or agree with. 

 

We all have our biases, and too often, we sometimes tend to let those biases cloud our judgement, which often leads to giving people bad advice based not on their individual needs and budget, but on our own preferences. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2007 at 17:41
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I agree with RifleDude here.

 

The reality is that if a guy only owned a single 30-06 rifle mounted with a simple 6x fixed power scope and perhaps a no-frills binocular (even if it didn't have phase correction coatings or hydrophobic coatings, etc, and wasn't waterproof and nitrogen, or argon, or whatever purged), they could get by just fine hunting anything and everything on the planet with the possible exception of some of Africa's bigger dangerous game. 

 

Accepting this premise however, doesn't afford much opportunity to keep the advertisers happy, or the gun writers employed. Extolling the virtues of the various new outdoor gear offerings is a necessary part of their ability to earn a paycheck and feed their families. Besides the fact that such limitations on gear would be awfully boring for all of us equipment junkies - especially those (like me) who don't much like the old 30-06 to begin with.

 

As a smart consumer, you just have to be able to understand this principle and to recognize that these writings are essentially not much more than long advertising copy. Much of it is true or, at least based in truth but, some of it is exaggerated (at best.) You just have to seperate the "chaff from the wheat" and make good decisions on where to spend your own hard-earned dollars.

 

As you do that however, just remember to be thankful that you've got something interesting to read in the first place.



Edited by lucznik
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 13:37
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I have only really shot one of the "W's".

 

It was a .300 WSM and the guy that bought it did so because he....

"Didn't think it would kick very much" and would "Drop a buck like a bolt of lightning."

 

He throws me the rifle, I shoot off 3 rounds standing.

He looks at me and say's "It kicks don't it??"

I said "Uh....yeah" 

 

This guy hunts whitetail deer in southern NC. 

He's killed a gazillion deer with a 30/06 or .270. 

Not many guys that jumped on the short mag band wagon are still using them in my AO.

Some are using the smaller caliber rifles to shoot groups on paper and some deer.

 

Not knocking the short mag. Just seems folks in my area lost interest.  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 13:46
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where i live they thought the 270 wsm would kill the 270 win, but now its faded, and they all want to buy the 325 wsm now, for whitetail, i tell them you know the 300wsm is overkill for whitetail ( i own one, so i too am guilty) but why dod you need a 325, they tell me well maybe some day i will got out west for elk, or to canada or alaska for bear or moose, maybe??

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:10
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In a hunting taper rifle I say go with the 270 or 7 WSM on a heavy barrel go with the 300 WSM.

I am not a fan of the 325 I prfer a different caliber at this point like a 375 or 338. All of the above

WSM's have yielded reduced recoil compared to the full size counterparts in my field tests.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:12
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of course there are some variables to consider but in my case i have an exeption, my 300 win is a pleasure to shoot off the bench the wsm will make think about it after about 3 shells
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:22
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Pyro your 300 win has a boss and longer barrel?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:24
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correct, but i took the boss off and bought that cr adapter that still accurizes but doesnt do anything for recoil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:28
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A shorter barrel will be a little lighter and project a bullet faster at the muzzle.

The CR adapter,I do not know what this is or its impact on the rifle.



Edited by SVD666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:36
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if you go to brownings web page and click on shooting acc. then click on boss, they have it there all it is, is a boss that doesnt have the muzzle break ability! it will still do the tuning aspect, but no increase in noise and no supression of recoil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:40
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Originally posted by SVD666 SVD666 wrote:

A shorter barrel will be a little lighter and project a bullet faster at the muzzle.

The CR adapter,I do not know what this is or its impact on the rifle.

 

 

CR adapter is the non-ported sleeve for the BOSS so you have the same tuning ability the BOSS provides without the extra muzzle blast, however the tradeoff is there's also no recoil reduction.

 

On the shorter barrel, the opposite is true:  a longer barrel, up to a certain point, will give faster velocity.  This is why magnum rifles usually have 24-26" barrels, compared to 20-22" barrels for "standard" chamberings.  A lot depends on the type and burn rate powder used as well.  The longer barrel allows more complete combustion of the powder before the bullet exits the muzzle, and gives more optimal pressure curve for med to slow burning powders.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:42
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Sorry Pyro, I was typing my reply to SVD's question about the CR just as you were posting your response to the same question.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:55
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I've often heard the reduced recoil claim concerning the WSMs, but I just don't see how that's possible.  The laws of physics would seem to dictate that if you accelerated a projectile of a given weight at a given velocity, you would always have an "equal and opposite" reaction in terms of recoil, regardless of what amount or type of powder charge is used to propel it to that velocity.  "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."  Perhaps it's theoretically possible that the reaction could be spread over a longer period of time, but the dwell time of the bullet in the barrel is milliseconds, so I just don't buy the whole reduced recoil argument.  The reduced recoil could very well have been the result of different stock design, rifle weight, better recoil pad, etc.  There's nothing magical about the WSM rounds that haven't already existed previously with other similar case designs; it just uses a shorter, fatter case that promotes more efficient powder column burn.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 14:58
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 well i know i for sure dont believe it cause i can prove it!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:01
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Rifledude you are right about the shorter barrel and bullet speed that was a mental lapse on my part.

Thank you for the info on the CR. My question is can this more efficiant powder burn in a small case

yield improved controlled recoil? As far as amount and type of pwder isisnt that very significant in the amount or recoil felt?Barrel Lenghth what is your opinion and its affects on recoil?I am not shure why

my posts are in a heavy font,I am going to try to fix this.



Edited by SVD666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:04
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depends on the powder, some powders make less pressure than others
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:17
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Equations for calculating free-recoil are pretty easy to find.  The variables involved in these calculations include a lot of things including both the weight and muzzle velocity of the bullet, the weight of the rifle, and even the weight of the powder charge but, I've never seen one that asked for either the shape or height of the powder column or even for the operating pressure of the gun in question.

 

In theory, the increased efficiency of the powder burn in the short-fat cases might allow for a somewhat smaller quantity of powder to be used and still acheive the desired velocity.  This would result in a (VERY) slightly decreased amount of recoil due to the (VERY) slightly smaller amount of overall mass involved.  It is unlikely that any shooter would be able to recognize this difference, especially in the magnum big-game calibers being discussed.

 

As RifleDude stated, the laws of Physics demand that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  Assuming that we are shooting an equal weight projectile at an equal velocity and that the rifles are of equal weight and identical design, that the same recoil pad is used, that both rifles are shot from the same shooting position, etc., recoil will be the same. Period.

 

 

 



Edited by lucznik
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:21
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Thank you Lucznik I am going to consider all of this information and try to see how it relates in my field tests.

Exelent posts guys.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:36
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Originally posted by SVD666 SVD666 wrote:

Rifledude you are right about the shorter barrel and bullet speed that was a mental lapse on my part.

Thank you for the info on the CR. My question is can this more efficiant powder burn in a small case

yield improved controlled recoil? As far as amount and type of pwder isisnt that very significant in the amount or recoil felt?Barrel Lenghth what is your opinion and its affects on recoil?I am not shure why

my posts are in a heavy font,I am going to try to fix this.

 

Recoil in firearms terms is the reaction (the velocity of the firearm toward the shooter) resulting from accelerating a projectile of a given mass to a given velocity.  If bullet mass and the velocity it is driven remains constant, it doesn't matter much what the powder charge weight is used to accelerate that mass, though the recoil formula shows it does have a small effect.  I just don't believe that it has a significant effect anyone would notice.

 

In simple terms, recoil is Mass X Velocity.

 

The formula for recoil velocity is VG=32.2*I/WG
(VG= velocity of the gun (not projectile) in f.p.s.)

where I (recoil impulse) = MB*VB+MC*VC
& WG= weight of the gun in pounds

The formula for free-recoil energy is
EG=WG*VGsquared/64.4
(EG=free-recoil energy in ft. lbs.)

MG= mass of the gun
VG=velocity of the gun
MB=mass of the bullet
VB=velocity of the bullet
MC=mass of the powder charge
VC=velocity of the powder charge

 

In this case, you would convert grains to lbs. for the purpose of the formulas and 1 lb. = 7000 grains.

 

As for the effect of barrel length on recoil, the reduction in gun weight from a shorter barrel would slightly increase recoil sensation, the opposite from lengthening the barrel.  Other than that, it would have no significant effect.



Edited by RifleDude
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:39
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thats why i said i cant see a couple of inches of barrel making that much difference i'm talking a 300 winm that kicks like a 25-06 and that 300wsm is more like a .338 or more in felt recoil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:47
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Thank you rifledude. I have felt reduced recoil in the field with the WSM but I am going to disect all previous observations and consider all aspects of our discussion over and over. I am confident that the WSM is a more

accurate caliber than its larger counterpart but the recoil part I am going to re-consider. Great posts.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:48
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

thats why i said i cant see a couple of inches of barrel making that much difference i'm talking a 300 winm that kicks like a 25-06 and that 300wsm is more like a .338 or more in felt recoil

Pyro I have never expierienced nothing like this in the field, I am not shure what is going on here.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:49
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i wish i could have my old man bring my winm up from wyoming and then i could meet up with you some how just so i could see your expression after you shot the two.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:54
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That would be very interesting, I do not know what to say, I have not seen this before but I definetly believe you that this is what you are expieriencing.
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