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Would this Zeiss suit me for long range shooting?

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greywolf View Drop Down
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Was considering a Bushnell 6500 4.5x-30x, but am starting to wonder if that is really going to work for me.  I have read that there is only 50MOA of adjustment on it, which if I recall my math would, even if I was dead-on in the center of the adjustment range, give me 25 MOA up or down.  Are my calculations correct in assuming that this would give me (since 1/4" click at 100 is 2 inches per click at 800), only 50 inches of drop adjustment at 800 yards?

I will be using a .223 and a .30-06 for my long range shooting, mostly for varmints and large game.  Obviously, I wouldn't make shots on large game past 500 at the most with a .30-06, and varmints up to 500 would be fine.

But I'm wondering if the 6500 at even anything past 20x is going to be optically sub-par, and do I really need more than 14x or 20x?

I've had some 3-9 Zeiss Conquests, including one I took to Namibia for hunting plains game, and it is simply amazing.  I even took a 100 yard shot, after the sun was down, on a jackal and the light transmission was incredible.  So I'm heavily leaning towards a Zeiss 4.5x or 6.5x with the Rapid-Z 800 yard reticle.  True, a bit more expensive than the 6500.

However, I want to make sure this would work out well given my needs and concerns.


Does anyone know what the overall, from absolute bottom to absolute top, range of MOA adjustment there is on the 4.5x and 6.5x Zeiss Conquest with Rapid-Z 800 reticle is?  Is it better than 50MOA?

Thanks!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 09:23
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your 06 will run about 25 moa drop at 800 yds. which is already built into the rapid z reticle, so it wouldn't be any problem. the reg. turrets on the conquest don't have markings all the may around and its almost impossible to use as a dial in , unless you get the target knobs.
I use the conquest 4.5x14 800 on a regular basis, with the 800 and its a good mid priced variety.
whether you could take advantage of the 20x would depend on your guns, and how they were set up.;
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 09:30
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

your 06 will run about 25 moa drop at 800 yds. which is already built into the rapid z reticle, so it wouldn't be any problem. the reg. turrets on the conquest don't have markings all the may around and its almost impossible to use as a dial in , unless you get the target knobs.
I use the conquest 4.5x14 800 on a regular basis, with the 800 and its a good mid priced variety.
whether you could take advantage of the 20x would depend on your guns, and how they were set up.;
 
Well, I do like the Rapid-Z reticle simply because instead of having to dial the knobs, you just line up the reticle number needed based on range (6 for 600 yards, 8 for 800, etc.) and pull the trigger.
 
Can you get Target Knobs (and where to get them?) for the Conquest?
 
I'm just wondering if 14x is really all I need - let's say I shoot something at 800 yards (or attempt to - LOL) - would I need 20x to even see it well enough to take the shot?
 
Still trying to find the total click adjustment range for the Conquest - the Zeiss site says "42.84 inches" - does that mean, from center height, I can only dial it 21 inches up, and 21 inches down?  Or does it mean 42.84 inches up, and 42.84 inches down, which I guess would mean an overall 85 MOA from absolute bottom to absolute top?  Which, compared to the 50MOA of the Bushnell, sounds a lot better.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 09:45
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It all depends on the size of your target, the level of accuracy required and of course mirage. Mirage alone can limit you to using lower magnifications. Mirage aside, my advise would be to buy at least 20x. You can allways turn it down, never up. I met another guy at the range this weekend lamenting (as in crying and ripping his clothes off and rolling in ash)  that he did not buy higher magnification.

I participate in shoots and allways use the higher magnifications on the scope, never the lowest..
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 10:04
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if you have to use the scope adjustments at there extremes -- they are worthless-- this z when used with the internet program and set on 11.65 power with the loads it likes --175 gr smk, will hit 8" by 11" steel for as many rds as you have to shoot. with the 800 bar, at 800 yds, 700 bar at 700 and 600 etc.  the lower bar settings don't work out to "fall" exactly on the markings but the cone of fire still gives the hits.

remmy stock 5R
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 10:12
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Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

[
Can you get Target Knobs (and where to get them?) for the Conquest?

 


You can send your non-target knob Conquest in to Zeiss and fro $50 they will retro-fit a low-profile target turret.  I did it and it was money well spent.

For long-range shooting, I hate reticles like the Rapid-Z since the lines are "about X yards".  For long-range work, I prefer dialing in the exact clicks for my load (temperature, barometric pressure,  and elevation have a significant influence on external ballistics.)

Zeiss will put a target turret on and Kenton Industries will laser print a BDC turret with your eact data on it.  My long-range 300WM wears a 4.5-14x44 Conquest with a tuned BDC knob from Kenton.  It has taken game at long- and short-range, mostly because I can dial in exact distances and hold dead-on - rather than questione xactly where the round will fall.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 10:12
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

It all depends on the size of your target, the level of accuracy required and of course mirage. Mirage alone can limit you to using lower magnifications. Mirage aside, my advise would be to buy at least 20x. You can allways turn it down, never up. I met another guy at the range this weekend lamenting (as in crying and ripping his clothes off and rolling in ash)  that he did not buy higher magnification.

I participate in shoots and allways use the higher magnifications on the scope, never the lowest..
 
Thanks, 8shots - I may end up with the 14x at first with an 800 Z reticle, see how that works, and then perhaps go up to 20x.
 
BTW - NICE ORYX!  Where did you get him?  I got back from Namibia 3 months ago and took one as well - got it all on video, too!
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 10:14
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

if you have to use the scope adjustments at there extremes -- they are worthless-- this z when used with the internet program and set on 11.65 power with the loads it likes --175 gr smk, will hit 8" by 11" steel for as many rds as you have to shoot. with the 800 bar, at 800 yds, 700 bar at 700 and 600 etc.  the lower bar settings don't work out to "fall" exactly on the markings but the cone of fire still gives the hits.

remmy stock 5R
 
Thanks, Dale - this may help to make up my mind for me - don't need "extreme" accuracy, but the ability to hit a decent sized target at 800 yards is what I'm going for.
 
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Hmm - I'm still trying to figure out what the overall range of clicks is from absolute bottom to absolute top - I want to make sure that with a .223 and .30-06, I can adjust clicks out to 500 and 800 yards respectively.  Will the Conquest allow me to do that?
 
 
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

[
Can you get Target Knobs (and where to get them?) for the Conquest?

 


You can send your non-target knob Conquest in to Zeiss and fro $50 they will retro-fit a low-profile target turret.  I did it and it was money well spent.

For long-range shooting, I hate reticles like the Rapid-Z since the lines are "about X yards".  For long-range work, I prefer dialing in the exact clicks for my load (temperature, barometric pressure,  and elevation have a significant influence on external ballistics.)

Zeiss will put a target turret on and Kenton Industries will laser print a BDC turret with your eact data on it.  My long-range 300WM wears a 4.5-14x44 Conquest with a tuned BDC knob from Kenton.  It has taken game at long- and short-range, mostly because I can dial in exact distances and hold dead-on - rather than questione xactly where the round will fall.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 17:04
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You will have 42 moa of elevation total. if dead centered when zeroed, you would have about 20 up and 20 down. This would probably not be enough for you to dial out to 800 with your '06. I just checked for regular winchester powerpoints, and for the .223 at 500 yards and a 200 yard zero, you would need about 11 moa at 500 yards. The '06 would need about 24 moa at 800 with a 180 gr. at 2700 fps. If you could put a +10 moa base on it you would be fine. I just use the reticle and don't dial anything. I just shoot milk jugs and a 10" steel circle at 2-700 yards.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 18:14
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

You will have 42 moa of elevation total. if dead centered when zeroed, you would have about 20 up and 20 down. This would probably not be enough for you to dial out to 800 with your '06. I just checked for regular winchester powerpoints, and for the .223 at 500 yards and a 200 yard zero, you would need about 11 moa at 500 yards. The '06 would need about 24 moa at 800 with a 180 gr. at 2700 fps. If you could put a +10 moa base on it you would be fine. I just use the reticle and don't dial anything. I just shoot milk jugs and a 10" steel circle at 2-700 yards.

 
Gotcha - well, if I use the reticle and don't worry about clicks, then I wouldn't really need the MOA adjustment then, eh?
 
I think the 4.5-14x might be the way to go - not too much magnification, and I like 4.5x for the low end as it is the mag I have it on most of the time when I hunt. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 23:22
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I really think you should be looking at the Rapid Z1000 as it starts with distance marks above center. Remember though that all balistic reticles work only at the highest power so dont think you can put it on 6x and the reticle correspond to the same thing.  I think being able to dial in the correction is a better plan at long range in which case a duplex will be less cluttered or a mil dot might be the best choice as it can with some practice be used for range finding.  It took a while for one of my friends to understand that his balistic reticle didnt correspond to what the book said for hold over when he had his 3-9 on 3x. I explained that if you look through the scope as you dial the power down the field of veiw gets larger but the reitcle stays the same size so the distance between marks on the reticle corresponds to a different point at 3x than it does at 9x.
One would think that a 4x fixed or a 6x fixed with a balistic reticle would be the ticket for general hunting - it works with Trijicon ACOG's but they are the only ones bright enough to do that every other company wants to build balistic reticles on scopes 9x and higher power. 


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - October/13/2008 at 23:25
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

I really think you should be looking at the Rapid Z1000 as it starts with distance marks above center. Remember though that all balistic reticles work only at the highest power so dont think you can put it on 6x and the reticle correspond to the same thing.  I think being able to dial in the correction is a better plan at long range in which case a duplex will be less cluttered or a mil dot might be the best choice as it can with some practice be used for range finding.  It took a while for one of my friends to understand that his balistic reticle didnt correspond to what the book said for hold over when he had his 3-9 on 3x. I explained that if you look through the scope as you dial the power down the field of veiw gets larger but the reitcle stays the same size so the distance between marks on the reticle corresponds to a different point at 3x than it does at 9x.
 
From what I understand reading the Rapid-Z calculator on Zeiss' website, depending on the bullet, velocity, caliber, etc. and your reticle, there is a "sweet spot" where you put the scope on a certain magnification (say, 7.5x) and THAT is where it needs to be to make the reticle work optimally for that load.  After my experiences in Africa with long-range shooting, I want something that I can quickly (meaning, less than 10 seconds) make a long-range shot without having to count clicks, etc.  I got damn lucky on a 500 yard baboon shot using a Zeiss 3-9 scope with #4 German reticle, but it was luck, I think.  If I had a BDC reticle then I think I would have had a better time of it.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/13/2008 at 23:56
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Hey greywolf

I have several different type reticles:  Kahles with a TDS, Burris Black Diamond with a Ballistic Mil Dot, 2 of the Kahles MultiZeros and a Conquest RapidZ 800.  The Conquest is my favorite.

You are correct in that you input the data on the Zeiss website and it will calculate the power to set the scope on to match your ballistics.  On my 6.5 rem mag shooting a 140 gr bullet at 3100 fps I set the power on 12 and it works out well.

Besides the ballistic reticle, the Conquest is the best scope for the money out there.  Extremely clear and crisp.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 00:13
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Thanks, Sakomato - I think I'm going to pull the trigger and get one - a 4-14x44 with Rapid Z 800 reticle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 00:48
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The problem I see here is that most guys want to stalk game at 4x to 6x cause having a scope always set on 12 x or trying to get it there in a hurry and find a rest that will work sounds like a recipe for missing the shot.
8707 Kahles 4-12x52 Helia CL Multizero 51733, Matte finish, plex reticle, 1" tube, side focus, fast focus eye piece, allows you to zero your scope at five different ranges, close to new condition. $1,392.00 $799.95
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Greywolf, I shot my Oryx this year at a place called Upington. I did do a post in the Hunting section.
If you are hunting with the scope and not just doing range work, then the lower magnification also becomes a factor.
For quick shooting nothing beats the good ol' Kentucky windage. Zero your rifle at 200 yds and learn to shoot - or put differently, get to know your rifle ballistics. Certainly for me nothing else works. A good 3,5 - 10 scope is all you need, with a duplex reticule. There is not much time to work out which aimpoint or bar to use, etc when the pressure is on. Pick up and shoot is all you can do.
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

The problem I see here is that most guys want to stalk game at 4x to 6x cause having a scope always set on 12 x or trying to get it there in a hurry and find a rest that will work sounds like a recipe for missing the shot.
8707 Kahles 4-12x52 Helia CL Multizero 51733, Matte finish, plex reticle, 1" tube, side focus, fast focus eye piece, allows you to zero your scope at five different ranges, close to new condition. $1,392.00 $799.95
 
If I want to stalk game at 4-6x, thats what I do, because if I'm stalking something, I will be close enough that I won't need a ballistic reticle. I use mine for spooky game. When you can't get closer than 400 yards to a deer because some idiot has been chasing him with a pickup, trying to get a shot, that's when I use mine. Or if I hunt the edge of a field, and the deer is too far, and there is no cover at all to set up a stalk. (think winter wheat field)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/14/2008 at 10:38
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lots of misunderstanding on using sfp bdc reticles-- some folks don't want to think about it so they go ffp -- what ever--  they are fun too-- some of the misconceptions
sfp needs to be used on a fixed power to work-- in reality you have two options -- set it to the bar markings such as zeiss and leo suggest or use it on any power with the load adjusted to that range. ( the bar markings may be some odd figure like 343 yd). the first is easiest for most hunters, the second easiest for most target shooters of ukd's.
dial in is more precise-- not the case , milling is only accurate at 5% of the range and laser rangefinders somewhat closer-- even if you know the exact range the dial in requires the mechanical need to click across some say 20 moa, or 80 clicks hoping that the each one moves the reticle the correct amt. -- with a bdc with known hold over just add the remaining click exp, dot at 18 moa, add 8 clicks, less opportunity for the machine to fail. (less need to operate the erector set at its extremes)
 
several different scope modifications have been added to make up for the difference in lost speed of target acquisition of bdc and dial in these include
elevation knob set to 1 moa (leo m3) opps there went our precision
big knob to grab faster (uso and ior)
 
next time at the range on a 100 yd target shoot a group with your sfp on its lowest setting and then change to highest- even if there is a difference, can you hold that well on a hunting shot?
 
now saying that a bdc is too busy, and the further you go out the busier it gets and subdivisions, and hold off -- thats a valid reason.
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

I really think you should be looking at the Rapid Z1000 as it starts with distance marks above center. Remember though that all balistic reticles work only at the highest power so dont think you can put it on 6x and the reticle correspond to the same thing.  I think being able to dial in the correction is a better plan at long range in which case a duplex will be less cluttered or a mil dot might be the best choice as it can with some practice be used for range finding.  It took a while for one of my friends to understand that his balistic reticle didnt correspond to what the book said for hold over when he had his 3-9 on 3x. I explained that if you look through the scope as you dial the power down the field of veiw gets larger but the reitcle stays the same size so the distance between marks on the reticle corresponds to a different point at 3x than it does at 9x.
One would think that a 4x fixed or a 6x fixed with a balistic reticle would be the ticket for general hunting - it works with Trijicon ACOG's but they are the only ones bright enough to do that every other company wants to build balistic reticles on scopes 9x and higher power. 


Question, is my Nightforce reticle different from the balistic reticles you are talking about? According to NF my 5.5-22 with a NPR 2 reticle the marks are 2 MOA at 22x, 4 MOA at 11x and 8 MOA at 5.5x. I would have thought that for other balistic reticles the concept would have been similar.
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your reticle has a fixed interval while bdc are progressive, in other words while your second bar is 4 moa the second bar on the zeiss is about 5.5 moa, you can use your reticle exactly the same, and in fact nf has a special package computer ballistic package geared to nf reticles that does the same thing as the zeiss web site, and both are made by exbal.
 
the other problem here is that you are talking about ranging with a sfp reticle , and the relationships are linear, or just some fraction of the power, but the change in bullet impact due to magnification changes is not linear (except in ffp). two different animals.
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Originally posted by 
<div>the other problem here is that you are talking about ranging with
a sfp reticle , and the relationships are linear, or just some fraction
of the power, but the change in bullet impact due to magnification
changes is not linear (except in ffp). two different animals. </div>[/QUOTE
the other problem here is that you are talking about ranging with a sfp reticle , and the relationships are linear, or just some fraction of the power, but the change in bullet impact due to magnification changes is not linear (except in ffp). two different animals.
[/QUOTE wrote:




I thought that the bullet impact would be the same regardless of what magnification you use. Or am I missing something here?


I thought that the bullet impact would be the same regardless of what magnification you use. Or am I missing something here?
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the gun does what it does, the bullet impact will always be the same or at least a statistical resemblance-- its the optics that change.
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8Shots said it well
{( Zero your rifle at 200 yds and learn to shoot - or put differently, get to know your rifle ballistics.)Certainly for me nothing else works. A good 3,5 - 10 scope is all you need, with a duplex reticule. There is not much time to work out which aimpoint or bar to use, etc when the pressure is on. Pick up and shoot is all you can do.}Excellent
 
A good shooter understands the skills and . To much time taken trying to compute balistics usually spoils the shot. Something changes. To much time taken by a sniper getting sightings has killed many a sniper. Learn your rifle. If you want to be tops in the field shoot only one rifle and settle on one load, learn its every quirk. tale notes and study them. All the experiance you can have goes out the door if you change weapons, Calibers. or ammunition. Practice Practice Practice.
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To me the ballistic reticle is a guide to quickly know how much to hold over. If I am pressed for time, and don't have time to dial in a shot I can guess at the range and put the correct mark where I want to hit. This keeps me from guessing how much I am holding over at a certain range. It is always consistant.
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