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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2006 at 18:57
silver View Drop Down
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At lunch after church today, one of the guys gave me a web site: http://www.Worldhunt.com

 

His bother is the hunter in the wheel chair shown in the video clip.  ESPN is looking to pick this up.  It is like a fishing tournament, but catch and release game hunting.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2006 at 17:02
lucznik View Drop Down
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A lot of traditional bowhunting clubs (and possibly some other hunting entities) are trying to find any way they can to put this company out of business.  This could include overt efforts such as legal actions (of what kind I don't know,) legislative lobbying, ballot initiatives, etc., as well as more "covert" efforts such as boycotts of sponsors' products and the like.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2006 at 17:03
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Thanks for link!!

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2006 at 19:49
silver View Drop Down
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Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

A lot of traditional bowhunting clubs (and possibly some other hunting entities) are trying to find any way they can to put this company out of business.  This could include overt efforts such as legal actions (of what kind I don't know,) legislative lobbying, ballot initiatives, etc., as well as more "covert" efforts such as boycotts of sponsors' products and the like.

 

 

I find it all a tad strange... Traditional bow hunters can be an anal lot too.

 

 What would be the basis of legal standing for law suit?  More so if the purpose is not to kill the animal.  The hunt takes place on private ground or outside the country?  How is this noticalby differant than a bass tournament?  How is this legally differant than a local big buck contest?

 

MORE IMPORTANTLY WHAT ARE THE LEGAL "-COMEBACKS-" FROM ACTIONS AGAINST THIS GROUP!!  THAT IS THE QUESTION THAT SHOULD BE ASKED FIRST!!

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2006 at 23:53
lucznik View Drop Down
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Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

A lot of traditional bowhunting clubs (and possibly some other hunting entities) are trying to find any way they can to put this company out of business.  This could include overt efforts such as legal actions (of what kind I don't know,) legislative lobbying, ballot initiatives, etc., as well as more "covert" efforts such as boycotts of sponsors' products and the like.

 

 

I find it all a tad strange... Traditional bow hunters can be an anal lot too.

 

 What would be the basis of legal standing for law suit?  More so if the purpose is not to kill the animal.  The hunt takes place on private ground or outside the country?  How is this noticalby differant than a bass tournament?  How is this legally differant than a local big buck contest?

 

MORE IMPORTANTLY WHAT ARE THE LEGAL "-COMEBACKS-" FROM ACTIONS AGAINST THIS GROUP!!  THAT IS THE QUESTION THAT SHOULD BE ASKED FIRST!!

 

I'm not sure I understand your final question (the one in all caps.)  Let me try to address some of your others...

 

As to legal actions, as I mentioned in my first post, I don't know exactly what form they might take.  However, the reading I have done leads me to suspect that it would be directed against the chronic use of tranquilizers that this "hunt" style would require.  Such drugs are dangerous even with single uses (which is why they require a veterinarian to be present when utilized.)  Multiple, repeated uses could have serious side effects to the animals, just like chronic use of drugs (whether illicit or prescription) has with people.  Even cattle ranchers and sheep herders who are breeding animals specifically for slaughter have to maintain certain standards for animal treatment until slaughtering time. The amounts and frequencies of drugs administered to those animals are amoung such standards and this would be one primary difference between this activity and a bass fishing contest(ie no drugs are used on the fish.) Local big-buck contests generally do not take place in hig-fenced enclosures that have been stocked with grossly unnatural populations of "trophy" bucks (nor are bass tournaments similarly stocked with artificially high fish populations.) Such contests generally take place in more natural environments where there is more chance and luck (rather than gaurantees) involved in the outcomes. Whether or not the actions are taking place on private property would have no bearing to the legal argument. Obviously, if the activity takes place outside of the US, then the prevailing laws of the nation where it did take place would be applied, not US law.

 

On their website the organization has an "expert" who attempts to assuage concerns about their use of tranquilizers by quoting a source which states that a particular drug combination has proven to be extremely safe and exhibits a low mortality rate (less than 2%.)  His argument however, is intellectually dishonest on at least two points.  First, he makes a point of describing the relative safety of this one particular drug combination but, then takes pains to explain that they are not using this particular combination at all.  They are using a new and heretofore untested combination of two competely seperate drugs.  He states that "preliminary" results look good but, that's not the same as long-term clinical trials. In fact, it's not even close.

 

Second, even if they were using the drug combination that had been tested and shown to be safe, they would still be using it in a manner and in frequencies, doses, etc. that are inconsistent with the parameters of the study that deemed them to be safe.  This would be like a doctor who prescribes oxycontin for severe postoperative pain.  This drug can work wonders and has great medicinal value.  Furthermore, it is safe. However, declaring it "safe" does not include a license for chronic use.  Used too often or too much results in terrible physical side effects as well as crippling dependency.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2006 at 09:45
silver View Drop Down
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As for  my question in caps, perhaps you have heard the phase "Unintended Consequences?"  Some here may have even read the book of the same name by John Ross.  Perhaps another phrase that comes to mind: "Anything you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law."  The cure could be worst than the cold...

 

I think that any stuff used against this could very well comeback to bite us in the long run.  What better vehicle could there be for the antis, than an anti-hunting bill set up by hunters?  My thought is let it flash in the pan.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2006 at 12:44
lucznik View Drop Down
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I have only a cursory level of familiarity with the John Ross novel and while I have understood that he spends a great deal of effort and many pages accurately describing such items as bike repair, ammunition reloading processes, stamp collecting etc. (which I have been told are accurate and can be quite instructive,) it must always be kept in mind that his book is a work of fiction.  The protagonists (both the heroes and the villains) do and say what they do because Mr Ross' imagination dictated that they do so. I generally avoid fiction when trying to form opinions and arguments for or against any particular subject.

 

However, you do bring up an interesting point.  I suppose the question is whether an individual feels the consequences of allowing the WorldHunt to exist are better/worse than those involved in opposing the organization.  In other words, is the "devil you know better than the devil you don't?"

 

I would doubt you would see actual overt legal sparring over this issue.  For one thing, the hunting organizations involved probably don't have the funds to support a protracted legal battle and secondly, there would be little legal ground on which to base a civil suit.  It would be difficult to make a claim on actual direct harm incurred.

 

What is more likely is that they will actively lobby for careful scrutiny and vigorous enforcement of the group under existing veterinary and livestock laws. All of these trophy animals will have to be privately owned and classified as livestock rather than big-game animals and/or wildlife. Otherwise, they would fall under the jurisdiction of the local Fish and Game departments and laws which would require the "hunters" to have appropriate licenses and would limit the activity to the official hunting seasons.  They would also otherwise run afoul of the various laws criminalizing the harrasment of wildlife, which most states have on their books. The goal of course would be to make enforcement so strict and compliance so difficult that WorldHunt could not operate and still maintain reasonable profitability.

 

Aside from lobbying, the other very effective technique that is being employed is the institution of a voluntary ban on the purchase and/or support of any company, product, service, etc. that chooses to sponsor the activity. This also includes  mail, email, telephone, etc. campaigns directed at such sponsors to complain about their sponsorship and to ask that such support be pulled. Market forces can indeed be very powerful. Already one such sponsoring company has caved into the pressure and pulled their support.  A bowhunting magazine has also refused to continue running ads for Worldhunt due to pressure from its readership. WorldHunt seems to be aware of this as they are now largely keeping their list of supporters secret - at least for the time being.  At some point they will have to make the names public as companies don't just give money out for free. They expect to have their products, services, etc. advertised and lauded in return for their financial sponsorship.

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2006 at 15:53
lucznik View Drop Down
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I thought you might find this interesting as well.  This first one is taken from the Pope and Young website and is a public announcement in relation to the WHA:

A recent announcement by the World Hunting Association has raised significant concerns within the Pope and Young Club. According to WHA publicity releases, a televised tournament series featuring “professional hunters” is slated for broadcast this coming fall. Competitors reportedly will seek to tranquilize deer within high-fence game farm properties. Lucrative prizes are to be awarded to individuals collecting the biggest or most captive deer during televised “hunts.” Both bows and firearms will be used to deliver the tranquilizing agents.

“Hunting is not a ‘catch and release’ proposition,” said P&Y President M. R. James. “Nor is it intended to be an entertaining public spectacle. The Pope and Young Club certainly does not want its organization identified with this type of commercial endeavor, either directly or indirectly. That includes any reference to P&Y-class animals or the use of our measuring system to determine the score of captive deer. This idea flies in the face of the ethical, Fair Chase bowhunting challenges our organization embraces.”

Noting that the Pope and Young Club does not accept any captive animals as record book entries, Executive Secretary Kevin Hisey added: “The idea that this concept is just plain wrong goes well beyond the issue of game farms and high fences. Many responsible hunters will view it as an affront to the values, principles, and integrity of hunting so many hold dear.”

 

This next one goes even farther. It is a couple of exerpts from a letter from the Pope and Young Club to its official scorers:

 

TO: Official Measurers

FROM: Glenn Hisey, Records Chairman

SUBJECT: New "World Hunting Association" threatens the image of hunting

Within the last two weeks, news has come out about a new commercial operation called the WHA. Fortunately, there has been a significant outcry within the hunting community so far. However, with the sponsorship and money behind this "endeavor," it is unlikely to disappear quickly and quietly...


You will shortly be noticing a public statement from the Pope and Young Club denouncing this affront to real hunting. This WHA is just plain wrong on so many levels, it is difficult to start listing specifics! Just when you think you've seen it all, and the commerce of hunting couldn't stoop any lower, we are now confronted with the affront to the values, principles and integrity of hunting.

...we do not want to hear the Pope and Young Club's name, or the records program, mentioned in ANY way with this aberration (whether it be using/abusing our scoring system, or simply someone on TV saying "there's a Pope and Young'er"). To that end, I am encouraging you...no, I intend to be stronger than that... WE DO NOT want ANY official measurer of the Pope and Young Club involved in any way with this "thing!" If you choose to (your prerogative), be assured that your appointment as an official measurer for our organization will be in jeopardy (our prerogative).

 

As you can see, considerable effort has and will continue to be made by hunting organizations big and small to eradicate this organization and if that's not possible, to at least place sufficient distance between them and real hunting so as to ensure noone can confuse the one as being representative of (or in support of) the other.

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