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Wolves vs coyote

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Actually, I like shooting the "deer dogs".  Catch one or more running into my club or on my land and they are buzzard meat.  I had to quit using a .22 on them, though.  They don't ROLL far enough.  Takes a 30-06 or better to really bounce one.  Have not had the opportunity to blast one with the Lott yet, but I'm sure it won't be long.  
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Actually, I like shooting the "deer dogs".  Catch one or more running into my club or on my land and they are buzzard meat.  I had to quit using a .22 on them, though.  They don't ROLL far enough.  Takes a 30-06 or better to really bounce one.  Have not had the opportunity to blast one with the Lott yet, but I'm sure it won't be long.  

my brother in law drilled one with my 300 win mag many moons ago, i had some 150gr ballistic tips i loaded up extra hot and im not joking it cut that dog in half. the lott would turn a coyote inside out.
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I was talking about the deer hunting dogs.  People around here don't understand the words "no hunting with dogs allowed".  
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I hunt with "deer dogs" from time to time in Ga. I don't think it would be a good idea for anyone to shoot my dog.They might find themself in a little more conflict than one person would ever want to be in. I do keep them  "deer dogs"off other peoples property and have respect for other people while hunting this.I also have the same problem iin alabama with people not understanding the words "no hunting with dogs allowed",Dan. I give a warning shot the first time.the second time I see the dog it is relocated to the farm in the sky.
  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/15/2009 at 09:05
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i lost the chance at two nice deer during archery season a few years ago to a a collie, it came running into the woods and i was just pulling my string back to take a shot and the deer of course bolted out of there. i was pissed, then i heard the owners talking. they were taking a walk down the township road and they let the dog get away from them. i hauled ass out to the road and proceeded to scare the hell out of them. i told them i catch that dog in my woods again during deer season i would kill it as would anybody else hunting my woods. needless to say the dog hasnt been back.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 11:55
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Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

I hunt with "deer dogs" from time to time in Ga. I don't think it would be a good idea for anyone to shoot my dog.They might find themself in a little more conflict than one person would ever want to be in. I do keep them  "deer dogs"off other peoples property and have respect for other people while hunting this.I also have the same problem iin alabama with people not understanding the words "no hunting with dogs allowed",Dan. I give a warning shot the first time.the second time I see the dog it is relocated to the farm in the sky.
  

Brandon,

I love ya’, bro, but this is a “teachable moment” I cannot let slide.  First off, send me a picture of your dog and IF he makes to my hunting area, I will fire a warning shot… just for you.  However, remember the 100x400sq/yd "clearing" area of the Lott. 

 

OK, for dog hunting… YOU (this is the "all inclusive" YOU) trained your dog to hunt deer (or had someone do it for you).  YOU are responsible for being able to control the animal and make sure it does not 1) violate property lines, ie., crossing into a hunting club to which you do not belong and such hunting is not allowed…making it ILLEGAL, 2) venture into areas where hunting with dogs is ILLEGAL.  It is not my obligation to let it go OR to fire a warning shot.  If you do not have such control of the animal, you should not be hunting with it.  I have a REALLY hard time telling dogs from wolves or coyotes, which are natural predators and obtain their food from killing other animals… that is what predators do.  (When I was very young, there was a county around Crockett, Texas that allowed deer hunting with dogs… most other counties around there did not.  I went a few times with a friend, have never been again since.  It is not hunting to me, I didn’t enjoy it.  I have read Teddy Roosevelt’s works praising the practice, but I find no justification for it.  If you want to hunt that way, it is OK with me, just keep your dogs where they belong.  It should be noted though, that those dogs in Texas were well trained enough that if even in “full chase” they heard the horn, they would stop and come to the horn.  Not many people bother to train their hunting dogs to that level anymore.)  Unfortunately, no one has ever taken it upon themselves to train the entire wolf and coyote populations in the difference between domestic animals and wild/FOOD animals.  Therefore, they will hunt and kill just about anything that passes for food in their eyes.  (which regardless of the BS articles, MAN does not constitute a food source for them... there are VERY RARE exceptions, mostly myth, of people being attacked by wolves or coyotes, but I remember a plane crash where some of the passengers ended up as food, they made a couple of movies about it… can’t say I’ve ever heard that wolves or coyotes will eat their own).  However, a large majority of the “sporting population” espouse the glories of indiscriminately killing wolves and coyotes while damning the action of killing a dog that, whether directed by his master or on his own accord, is executing a criminal act, ignorance of the law is no excuse, right?.  Wolves and coyotes, if one were inclined to do research, do engage in, what is considered by uninformed humans indiscriminate killing, massive killing of livestock… at times of the year where there is very little other food.  They really don’t have mass storage devices so, in lieu of a freezer, they tend to let the carcasses lie in the snow until they can come back and consume the spoils.  It is true that sometimes they don’t make it back, but that is generally Man’s fault or some larger predator prevents them from coming back to the kills, or some other creature despoils the flesh before the wolves can make it back.   I’m not saying people should let the predators kill their livestock.  But, thinking back on an earlier comment, why can’t you just fire a warning shot or two?  Why do you have to kill them for doing what predators do???

I will kill predators when they “infringe” upon my “territory” or when they endanger another person or pets… just because they don’t want to consume you doesn’t mean they won’t cause serious harm for a perceived territorial violation.  Hunting of predators when they become overpopulated is OK with me… where the areas are directly affected (look at what the enviro-whackos are doing to the poor ground squirrels.  It would make much more sense to me to allow hunters to decrease the population rather than just blowing them up in their dens).  I’ve fought internally over these things for years. 

 

If someone were to shoot one of my animals, I would be in a Tazmanian Devil RAGE.  However, none of my animals are trained to chase game, so it would have to be a malicious shooting.  Unless, of course, my animal was to be chasing a deer or some other animal across someone else’s property (not likely, since they have all been trained to “come to call”).  In that case, I would be angry, and certainly heartbroken…God knows, I just went through one of the most devastating pet losses I have suffered and it hurts… but, most of the anger in that case should be self-directed.  I would be the one at fault for placing my pet in that situation, for not having adequately trained and contro

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 20:13
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I feel that any hunting with dogs ,Deer,bobcats ,mountain lions/cougars, especially bears, all should be illegal? this is a sport that should have been banned long ago. it is not really hunting it is chasing down an animal till it is exhausted and gives up, and then held at bey that is not hunting  that is killing and that is not right!      Loco
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 21:28
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I know a few old timers who would disagree with this; most who hunted to put food on the table.

My grandfather used to hunt with dogs (one or two) on private land back in the day. The brush terrain was thick (now impossible to go through) so breaking brush and using dogs was a necessity. A lot of times deer quietly doubled back and didn't leave the brush, even when using dogs. This was many years ago but I don't remember a deer ever being exhausted and giving up. Maybe our situation was different than what you're describing.

Our dogs were pretty good hunters too, terrier beagle mix, that were trained not to chase deer into the next county or venture too far. They usually worked back and forth the areas between those breaking the brush. Ahh.. memories.





Edited by mike650 - April/16/2009 at 21:31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 21:40
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I believe in today's world this practice is unnecessary those were the day's and they were great! I guess if you were dirt poor and had no other means this would be OK that's a different story, but to do it for sport it is a crime! and I was really talking about outfits or hiring an outfitter who specializes in such an act. would you really want to shoot a bear out of a tree? or a cat for that matter? you can take theses animals with spot and stalk methods very easily. or even bait sets for the bear, where legal

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 21:48
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                Hey............... Mike look!          want one?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 22:07
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Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

I believe in today's world this practice is unnecessary those were the day's and they were great! I guess if you were dirt poor and had no other means this would be OK that's a different story, but to do it for sport it is a crime! and I was really talking about outfits or hiring an outfitter who specializes in such an act. would you really want to shoot a bear out of a tree? or a cat for that matter? you can take theses animals with spot and stalk methods very easily. or even bait sets for the bear, where legal

 I think you would find a great many anti-hunting fanatics who would agree with you completely.
 What does being dirt poor have to do with whether or not it is OK?
 Training dogs and hunting with them is NOT a crime or a sin nor any damn thing else.
 It is either right or it is wrong. Period. Make up your mind which it is to you.
 
After spending  thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours training a good pack of dogs, I would have no problem shooting a treed bear or cat, especially after a tough hunt trying to keep up to them. Hound hunting can be some of the toughest hunting there is.
 
BTW, good luck with that spot and stalk cougar hunting. Let me know when you get one, huh? And shooting a bear with his head in a barrel of stale donuts is more sporting than hunting them with hounds?
 Give me a break!
 
 Sorry, Looney, but you are WAY off base on this issue.
 
 


Edited by RONK - April/16/2009 at 22:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 22:22
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THAT IS YOUR OPINION  AND THAT IS GREAT!           kinda like fishing in barrel? and the stalking a cat. done it just couldn't make the shot and found out it was illegal for me to bring the damn thing in to my state anyway! and  the bear with its head in a barrel never said it was sporting nor did I say I would do it, I do however think it is a better way to hunt the bear rather than the use of dogs, and the money spent on hunting dogs????? in my opinion a dog is not a tool, hunting ,crime fighting, showing, what ever.Again opinions. just like what scope do you like or hate    RONK.. there is no need to get hostile! and I'm done with this thread so don't bother replying.  and just a note I live in the west we do not do things like in the east. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 22:28
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Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

I believe in today's world this practice is unnecessary those were the day's and they were great! I guess if you were dirt poor and had no other means this would be OK that's a different story, but to do it for sport it is a crime! and I was really talking about outfits or hiring an outfitter who specializes in such an act. would you really want to shoot a bear out of a tree? or a cat for that matter? you can take theses animals with spot and stalk methods very easily. or even bait sets for the bear, where legal



Yep, times were different back then that's for sure. Hunting and fishing for food to live vs. today where it's become more of a sport and less the main source for food. My grandfather never understood why I tournament bass fish and release my catch at the end of the day. Smile
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Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

                Hey............... Mike look!          want one?


Thanks RL!! Bandito
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2009 at 23:05
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Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

THAT IS YOUR OPINION  AND THAT IS GREAT!           kinda like fishing in barrel? and the stalking a cat. done it just couldn't make the shot and found out it was illegal for me to bring the damn thing in to my state anyway! and  the bear with its head in a barrel never said it was sporting nor did I say I would do it, I do however think it is a better way to hunt the bear rather than the use of dogs, and the money spent on hunting dogs????? in my opinion a dog is not a tool, hunting ,crime fighting, showing, what ever.Again opinions. just like what scope do you like or hate    RONK.. there is no need to get hostile! and I'm done with this thread so don't bother replying.  and just a note I live in the west we do not do things like in the east. 
 
Sorry, I am going to 'bother' replying, and I hope you have the courtesy to take the trouble to read what Iam going to tell you, whether or not you choose to reply.
 
 I'm not hostile.
  
I am angrily defending a huge aspect of the sport of hunting, which is under attack from all sides, and will be completely outlawed soon if guys like you, who call themselves Hunters, are willing to throw other Hunters under the bus just because they choose to use different methods than you do!
 
You suggested that all hunting with dogs be banned.
 Upland bird hunting, too?
 Farm boys coursing cottontails in the back forty with a pair of beagles, also?
 Coon hunting?
 
Since you consider it the same as arguing about what scope to use, keep in mind that I would never dream to suggest that high-magnification scopes be banned because they are "unfair".
 Yet that is what you in effect just said to several thousand or tens of thousands of hound hunters.
 Living in the East or the West has nothing to do with it either. Or at least it shouldn't.
 For what it's worth, I don't hunt with dogs, and haven't for many years.
 Truth be told, I don't even care for them all that much.
 But I can't sit back and grin uncomfortably when I read a post like the one you just wrote.
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Issues like these pertaining to the ethics of certain hunting practices are always dicey, and there are many practices that vary according to law and custom around the country.  We shouldn't let these differences pit one hunter against another, providing everyone is obeying the law where they hunt and we conduct ourselves ethically.  We need to stick together and respect the customs and laws that exist for our fellow hunters elsewhere, even if certain legal practices aren't our cup of tea.  There are traditionalists who think because I archery hunt with a modern compound bow, carbon arrows and high tech broadheads rather than using a traditional bow I built, handmade wooden arrows, and flint arrowheads, that I'm somehow "cheating."  Some would scorn at the fact I hunt deer from tree stands.  Laws vary around the country due to traditions, land use and terrain, and a host of other reasons.

By the way, I've never hunted deer with dogs, as it's illegal where I live.  However, I've hunted other species with dogs, and it was anything but easy.  I think part of the excitement of upland bird and duck hunting is watching a good dog work.
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By the way, this thread has gone a bit off topic, don't you think?  I believe it's run its course already (on the subject of wolves and coyotes), so if we wish to continue discussing the pros and cons of hunting with dogs, why not start a new thread?
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Issues like these pertaining to the ethics of certain hunting practices are always dicey, and there are many practices that vary according to law and custom around the country.  We shouldn't let these differences pit one hunter against another, providing everyone is obeying the law where they hunt and we conduct ourselves ethically.  We need to stick together and respect the customs and laws that exist for our fellow hunters elsewhere, even if certain legal practices aren't our cup of tea.  There are traditionalists who think because I archery hunt with a modern compound bow, carbon arrows and high tech broadheads rather than using a traditional bow I built, handmade wooden arrows, and flint arrowheads, that I'm somehow "cheating."  Some would scorn at the fact I hunt deer from tree stands.  Laws vary around the country due to traditions, land use and terrain, and a host of other reasons.

By the way, I've never hunted deer with dogs, as it's illegal where I live.  However, I've hunted other species with dogs, and it was anything but easy.  I think part of the excitement of upland bird and duck hunting is watching a good dog work.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2009 at 19:37
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OK I am sorry if I offended any other members about this subject, with out indepth discussion you can only guesstimate ones way of thinking and the reasons behind it! kinda like not ....seeing.... the whole picture?         
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I'm sorry if I came across as unnecessarily harsh in my rebuke of your stance, Looney. I wasn't offended as much as incredulous.
 I just get very defensive about hunting's future, and take every opportunity to point out breaches in our defense of it to my fellow sportsman. ( And here I am assuming that you too, hunt, as well as target shoot, reload, etc.),  
I have children, and I want them to have as many choices as to how and what they choose to hunt as possible.
 If they want to train a setter to flush grouse or a pack of registered Black and Tans for bear hunting.  Or not.
 I also want them to be legally able to use an AR15 to shoot a coyote or crow, if they wish,
 -(which is why I was also a reluctant but eventually vocal participant in the movement to encourage Jim Zumbo to enjoy an early retirement for his careless and traitorous words against the crown jewel that is our Second Amendment.)
 
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We all have the same spirit just different ways to appreciate it and different ways to share it with fellow hunters, shooters,  whom ever, every thing is two sided and I don't mean good and bad, just different. as far as hunting.... ..all my life, till I can no longer and this is what I teach others. I have taught and introduced many,many to the sports and feel proud .so lets carry on and remember each is his own.           James
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Let's hunt some Orc...
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Let's hunt some Orc...
 
YES!
 Release the hounds, Gimli!   (or maybe not...)
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Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Originally posted by hunterwingler hunterwingler wrote:

Damn wolves around here in idaho have took a big bite out the elk population. to bad we cant hunt them "YET"  


It is coming and I will be one of the first in line in Montana to get as many tags as I can!


My new issue of http://www.furfishgame.com/index.php just arrived and they say you guys got it in Montana and Idaho. Apparently the Obama administration only halted the plan to review it. Montana and Idaho classify them as big game with set seasons and limits. They  now say those states plans are good to go.
Wyoming classified them, essentially, as shoot on site varmints. It is back to the drawing board there.

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