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Windeage adjust base

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/29/2008 at 16:39
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My scope is off to the right (or left I cannot remember) by a full rotation of the knob (14MOA).

 
I have a windage adjust base which is probably the source of the problem.
 

Should I fix this or is this not a real big deal? The lack of adjustment does not bother me because I never actually adjust for wind.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/29/2008 at 17:17
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by allowing this-- your are not looking through the "sweeter spot" in the glass.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/29/2008 at 19:09
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 If you are sure that it is one full turn from the mechanical center or the optical center ( not necessarily the same thing, BTW) of your scope, you would be smart to fine tune the mounts to get everything lined up better.  With windage-adjustable bases, you are completely out of good excuses not to correct it.

 Dale's  right about the glass quality being the best at the center, or at least close to it.

 Your windage adjustable base may or may not be the source of the misalignment, but it is certainly the best place to correct it.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2008 at 21:59
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I've seen a number of windage go south. Give some thought to what happens when you adjust back and forth.... Metal is being displaced on the pivot (the front ring) the more you move it the looser it gets.
 
Go to a good Weaver style solid mount base and good high quality rings. It may not look as pretty to you, but they'll work better.
 
What is the difference between your mechanical and optical center? Use a mirror to get your optical center, it's easy.
 
I hope this helps...
 
RM
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2008 at 09:31
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Its easy to say get a weaver base but my rifle is over 30 years old and the only weaver base is a Farrell which not only has the wrong size screw holes but it is 12mm high.
 
That was the base I bought at first and would have put up with the height if the stupid thing would have fit.
 
Anyways, do you guys know aprox how many turns on the screws will move me 14 MOA?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2008 at 17:46
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Originally posted by Ring Master Ring Master wrote:

I've seen a number of windage go south. Give some thought to what happens when you adjust back and forth.... Metal is being displaced on the pivot (the front ring) the more you move it the looser it gets.
 
Go to a good Weaver style solid mount base and good high quality rings. It may not look as pretty to you, but they'll work better.
 
What is the difference between your mechanical and optical center? Use a mirror to get your optical center, it's easy.
 
I hope this helps...
 
RM
\
 I disagree with the assumption that the pivoting dovetail is worn badly enough to slop side to side enough to cause measurable error. They don't wear at all unless you move them many times, and very few shooters ever move them once they are set up initially.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2008 at 17:54
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Well, if you have "quarter clicks" then 14 MOA would be 56 clicks.
 
I would check to see which direction needs to be corrected, and then move the windage ring a tad in the opposite direction--(ie. if your bullets are landing to the right--you need to move the bullet to the left--therefore slide the rear ring to the right to straighten your scope..and vice versa)  and then tighten everything up again and take a shot---and see if you are improving. Keep doing that until you're really close to center---that way you have basically "saved" all of your ADJUSTMENT by taking care of the problem EXTERNALLY. Big%20Smile                      --Ed
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2008 at 18:25
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Originally posted by fmullegun fmullegun wrote:

Its easy to say get a weaver base but my rifle is over 30 years old and the only weaver base is a Farrell which not only has the wrong size screw holes but it is 12mm high.
 
That was the base I bought at first and would have put up with the height if the stupid thing would have fit.
 
Anyways, do you guys know aprox how many turns on the screws will move me 14 MOA?
  You can figure it out if you know the pitch of the threads on the windage screws, and the distance between the front ring and the rear ring.
 
14 moa=14 inches at 100 yards.
 
Let's say your rings are 4 inches apart.
 100 yards=3600 inches
 3600 divided by 4 inches equals 900 "ring space units".
 
 We now divide 14 by 900 = .016.
 .016 is about one- sixteenth of an inch.
 If the thread pitch on your windage screws is 32 Threads Per Inch, you would need two full turns of the screws to make the correction you desire. (1/32 x 2 equals 1/16)
 Remember to move the rear ring in the direction you want your Point of Impact to move.


Edited by RONK - March/14/2008 at 18:42
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2008 at 18:40
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Well, if you have "quarter clicks" then 14 MOA would be 56 clicks.
 
I would check to see which direction needs to be corrected, and then move the windage ring a tad in the opposite direction--(ie. if your bullets are landing to the right--you need to move the bullet to the left--therefore slide the rear ring to the right to straighten your scope..and vice versa)  and then tighten everything up again and take a shot---and see if you are improving. Keep doing that until you're really close to center---that way you have basically "saved" all of your ADJUSTMENT by taking care of the problem EXTERNALLY. Big%20Smile                      --Ed
 
 You will only make it worse by doing this.  The rear ring needs to move in the SAME direction you want the Point of Impact to move.
  Center your scopes' windage within the tube first, ignoring the effect this has on bullet placement.  THEN make your windage adjustment externally as I outlined.  THEN fine-tune with the turret only after you have first gotten close  by sliding the rear ring laterally with the windage screws on the base.
 
 (Ed's got the right idea, but he moved the rear ring in the wrong direction. Wink )


Edited by RONK - March/14/2008 at 18:54
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2008 at 19:20
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With years of working with the installation of many kinds and brands of rings and round filing windage rings by the dozens, I stand by what I said. If you are lucky enough to hit the setup on the first try, they're great but on your first adjustment, Your trip South has started.
 
RM
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2008 at 20:47
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Originally posted by Ring Master Ring Master wrote:

With years of working with the installation of many kinds and brands of rings and round filing windage rings by the dozens, I stand by what I said. If you are lucky enough to hit the setup on the first try, they're great but on your first adjustment, Your trip South has started.
 
RM
  What do you mean by "round filing windage rings"?
 Is this something you are doing as a means of correcting the fit?
 I've only dissassembled maybe a dozen or so of that type, but none of them turned easily enough to allow removal without a wrench fitted to the lower flats of the ring.  Maybe it's a local thing, but they always had grease on them to prevent undue wear at initial assembly, and as I said earlier, I doubt that most were ever adjusted  more than a couple times during several years of use. None of them would have shown more than a few ten-thousandths play under a dial indicator without some serious side pressure.
 Not questioning your experiences, just stating mine...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 12:54
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What do you mean by "round filing windage rings"?
 
I think it means it makes a very nice sound when it makes contact with the bottom of the trash can.
That's just my opinion.Big%20Smile
 
RM
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 14:05
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Originally posted by Ring Master Ring Master wrote:

What do you mean by "round filing windage rings"?
 
I think it means it makes a very nice sound when it makes contact with the bottom of the trash can.
That's just my opinion.Big%20Smile
 
RM
 
 LOL!  I'm dense.
 I was picturing you filing away on them with a round file like some poor Gringo trying to get out of a Mexican prison.   Smoking%20Bandit
 I just couldn't figure out how FILING on them could correct looseness!  
 
For what it's worth, they can be tightened up very effectively with a center-punch staking tap on each side of the male dovetail, if you care to save them. Please don't throw them away- send them to me, I'll pay postage!
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 16:55
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Big%20Smile         Danger Will Robinson! Danger Will Robinson!!
 
If you want to make two cylindrical tubes be parallel with one another ( one over the top of the other ) and the top tube is solidly fastened down 2/3 rds of the way forward--one needs to move the a$$ end of the upper tube "side to side"  in order to bring it into alignment with the axis of the cylindrical tube that is underneath it. [ imagine a rifle barrel and a scope...Wink ]
 
If you need to correct the front end of the upper tube ( we'll call it a "scope") and move it a little to the LEFT, in order to STRAIGHTEN IT with the axis of the lower tube ( we'll call that a "rifle barrel")---you need to move it's ASS to the RIGHT!    PERIOD.
 
If you need to correct the front end of the "scope" and move it a little to the RIGHT you have to move the scope's ASS a little to the LEFT.  PERIOD.
 
It ain't made out of rubber!! It's STIFF. Only one end of the rings is allowing you to wiggle it. ( You can slide the rear end...) The other end ( the front)  is solid rings. Bucky
 
Is anybody out here in Optics Land reading this? ( I don't want to hurt RONK'S feelings, but I have been scoping rifles for FORTY FOUR YEARS... ) 
 
Big%20Smile                                      Stick%20Horse                               Big%20Smile      
 
If you cranked the ASS END in the direction that you wanted the FRONT END to go, you would be shooting bullets out into the BUSHES!                        --Ed 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 19:00
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excuse me, but I read yu both several times and it seems to me your both saying the same thing ( other than the part about the other being wrong) and your both right, each saying it somewhat different, one in terms of axis alignment the other in pt. of impact.
it just like a pistol move it the same way.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 20:31
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RONK,
 
"Please don't throw them away- send them to me, I'll pay postage!"
 
I Too have peened a few.
 
The next of "Round Files" are your's.Bandito
 
Thank You...
 
RM
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 21:22
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Well, if you have "quarter clicks" then 14 MOA would be 56 clicks.
 
I would check to see which direction needs to be corrected, and then move the windage ring a tad in the opposite direction--(ie. if your bullets are landing to the right--you need to move the bullet to the left--therefore slide the rear ring to the right to straighten your scope..and vice versa)  and then tighten everything up again and take a shot---and see if you are improving. Keep doing that until you're really close to center---that way you have basically "saved" all of your ADJUSTMENT by taking care of the problem EXTERNALLY. Big%20Smile                      --Ed
 
    If you've been doing this for forty years, you've been doing it wrong for forty years.
 PERIOD
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 21:35
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OK RONK.  Let's just forget the whole thing and go back to having fun.   Big%20Smile     --Ed
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 21:37
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

excuse me, but I read yu both several times and it seems to me your both saying the same thing ( other than the part about the other being wrong) and your both right, each saying it somewhat different, one in terms of axis alignment the other in pt. of impact.
it just like a pistol move it the same way.
 
 No. We are not saying the same thing, and Ed is not saying the same thing in his second post that he did in his first.  In the first post he was talking about moving point of impact of the bullet and gave erroneous advice.  In the second post, he talked about aligning the scope tube to the rifle barrel, in which his advice was generally correct, but contradictory to his first post.
 He just doesn't have his head around it yet.  Wink
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 21:43
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

OK RONK.  Let's just forget the whole thing and go back to having fun.   Big%20Smile     --Ed
 
No deal, buddy.
 I'm having a lot of fun right now!!!   
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           I'm not leaving until you admit that I was right, and that you were wrong.
 Or just send me a new Super Sniper or something...Smoking%20Bandit
 
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

excuse me, but I read yu both several times and it seems to me your both saying the same thing ( other than the part about the other being wrong) and your both right, each saying it somewhat different, one in terms of axis alignment the other in pt. of impact.
it just like a pistol move it the same way.
 
 No. We are not saying the same thing, and Ed is not saying the same thing in his second post that he did in his first.  In the first post he was talking about moving point of impact of the bullet and gave erroneous advice.  In the second post, he talked about aligning the scope tube to the rifle barrel, in which his advice was generally correct, but contradictory to his first post.
 He just doesn't have his head around it yet.  Wink
 
 
Yes, I am saying the same thing--I just used an analogy about tubes in the second comment  because you obviously have misunderstood what I said in my first comment. The movement of the scope has remained the same in both comments.
 
I was talking about changing point of impact, yes, in the first comment, because that's what the discussion was about----and when one has run out of adjustment with his windage, then that someone needs to "straighten" up the scope with the bore, by moving the butt end of the scope sideways--thereby saving his windage clicks ( which he ran out of anyway!). So, yes, in that respect I was talking about the eventual correction of point of impact.
 
If your bullets are punching holes in the right hand side of a huge target board, and you want your bullets to move 15 inches to the left--it's time for you to slide the butt end of your scope a little to the RIGHT to straighten it up! How is that WRONG? It has been working on scoped rifles for a century.
 
If I can bore sight a rifle to be hitting bullseyes in 10-15 minutes ( by sometimes having to slide my scope a bit sideways to line it up..), How have I been " doing it wrong" for forty years? It's either hitting the target or its out in the brush somewhere. Bandito   --Ed
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2008 at 22:39
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

[QUOTE=Dale Clifford]excuse me, but I read yu both several times and it seems to me your both saying the same thing ( other than the part about the other being wrong) and your both right, each saying it somewhat different, one in terms of axis alignment the other in pt. of impact.
it just like a pistol move it the same way.
 
 No. We are not saying the same thing, and Ed is not saying the same thing in his second post that he did in his first.  In the first post he was talking about moving point of impact of the bullet and gave erroneous advice.  In the second post, he talked about aligning the scope tube to the rifle barrel, in which his advice was generally correct, but contradictory to his first post.
 He just doesn't have his head around it yet.  Wink
 
 
Yes, I am saying the same thing--I just used an analogy about tubes in the second comment  because you obviously have misunderstood what I said in my first comment. The movement of the scope has remained the same in both comments.
 
I was talking about changing point of impact, yes, in the first comment, because that's what the discussion was about----and when one has run out of adjustment with his windage, then that someone needs to "straighten" up the scope with the bore, by moving the butt end of the scope sideways--thereby saving his windage clicks ( which he ran out of anyway!). So, yes, in that respect I was talking about the eventual correction of point of impact.
 
If your bullets are punching holes in the right hand side of a huge target board, and you want your bullets to move 15 inches to the left--it's time for you to slide the butt end of your scope a little to the RIGHT to straighten it up! How is that WRONG? It has been working on scoped rifles for a century.
 
If I can bore sight a rifle to be hitting bullseyes in 10-15 minutes ( by sometimes having to slide my scope a bit sideways to line it up..), How have I been " doing it wrong" for forty years? It's either hitting the target or its out in the brush somewhere. Bandito   --Ed
 
  It is wrong because that's the way God , in His infinite Wisdom, causes simple physics to work!  Your method is contrary to that!
 Listen.
 Your gun is hitting to the right, when the scope is aimed at the center of your huge target board. (See that portion of your last post I highlighted in red.)  O.K.?  Good.
 You move the rear ring to the right. (YOUR way, not mine!) O.K.?  Good.
 If you did this, but have not moved the rifle at all yet, it's barrel is still pointing at the first group of shots at the right hand side of the target.  O.K.?  Good.
 Now then, when you look through the scope, again without moving the rifle, the barrel is still pointing to the original group at the right of the target but now the scope is pointing off to the LEFT SIDE of the target. O.K.?  Good.
 "No problem", you say, "I'll just swing this rifle over some more to the right to get the scope back on the center of the target, and fire a few rounds, and Boy, will Ron ever look stupid then.... He He...."
 
Ya startin' to see where this is going, Ed?
 
 The Texas Rangers have a saying that goes something like this:  "A man in the wrong can't hold out long against a man in the right who keeps on a' coming!
  edited to separate Ed's quotes from mine.


Edited by RONK - March/15/2008 at 22:44
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This board is crediting me with Ed's quotes in my latest post in this thread.  For the record, my latest post is the part in black bold, refuting Ed's statement in red bold a few lines above it.-  Ron



Edited by RONK - March/15/2008 at 23:05
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hmmmm.........I see what you are talking about--finally.  [ The more I read what you wrote and the more I read what I wrote, I am beginning to see your talking about...however, the fact that my rifle is shooting 3/4 inch groups is puzzling me--plus the fact that straightening out a scope cannot be a bad thing....]
 
Also, whenever these sight-ins occurred with me I moved the rifle all over the place ( on the bench, in my lap, sideways, screwdrivers, etc.) I put the rifle again up on a sandbag, cranked my windage dial back a whole revolution or more ( because I had run out of adjustment--which had started this whole procedure anyway), looked through the bore again, pointed it the big bullseye, and started all over...But you're saying that I have still pointed the scope off to the left somewhere....when I'm saying that all I did was straighten it up with the barrel.
 
OK....so we do it your way for this discussion. You're 15 inches from the bullseye at 100 yards. YOU moved your scope so that the FRONT of the scope is looking at the "BAD BULLET HOLES".....now are you gonna click back to center SIXTY CLICKS? Or are you saying that by pointing your scope at those holes, you are close now, and only need 3 inches to get on the bullseye? Whereas, I have "bent" my scope the wrong way...and the fact that I, too, only needed 3 inches to get on the bullseye is incorrect. 
 
Well, I finally DO SEE what you are meaning. I will try that the next time I run out of adjustment.                           Smile     ....and I was not trying to make anyone look stupid....I think that I am the one who did not understand this concept in the long run anyway.   --Ed   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2008 at 08:26
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 Not a problem, Ed!
 I wasn't getting mad at you, either.  I truly love this kind of a debate and am glad that my clumsy words were eventually able to illustrate my point.
 I think the problem started in your first post on this thread, wherein you made the mistaken assumption that the  scope on our theoretical rifle was pointing too far to the RIGHT in relation to the barrel, when in fact it was pointing too far to the LEFT of the barrel. (Line of Bore). THAT is why it ran out of windage in the turret. You corrected in the wrong direction, making the problem worse, not better, which is the only error I was trying to make you guys aware of.
 You are correct in thinking that aligning the scope tube to the bore is a good thing.  It IS a good thing, but that's not what was happening in your procedure.
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