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338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 21:20
Do they drop or fall???


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 21:23
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Do they drop or fall???



do they drop or fall...  

Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/16/2013 at 22:46
 
YEP   -- Gravity is Not your friend.
 
 

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 06:06
When I shoot upwards the buck falls, when I shoot perpendicular the buck falls, when I shoot downwards the buck falls.
 
What more do I need to know?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 06:30
Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

When I shoot upwards the buck falls, when I shoot perpendicular the buck falls, when I shoot downwards the buck falls.
 
What more do I need to know?


8shots you stole my thunder, that's almost exactly what I was going to say. I have a headache after all that stuff, but you know what , I love it. I've learned more on this forum than you can imagine. Now next month when Whitetail season opens I hope when I have " Bucky " in my scope I don't start thinking about all of this " S--T "

Thanks guys that was great.

Excellent
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.
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338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 07:10
blank dead in its tracks.
 
I blanked the dear right there.
 
I checked my data started to pull squeezed just a little bit more and blanked him
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 08:02
now this argument doesn't work for everyone especially those who hunt deciduous specimens.
 
I took the shot and I blanked the tree!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 11:59
I re-read this thread, since I had a moment of free time.

As it often is, the argument here is about terminology since all involved parties seem to understand what is happening with the bullet.

Generally speaking, I think RC had his terminology pretty nicely squared away (except for that perpendicular thing) and KB had to move quickly to refine a couple of terms.

A couple more comments on terminology:
-The whole business with "fall", "drop" and the rest of it required some comment on the frame of reference.
-The only thing that you know from gravity is this: the moment the bullet leaves the muzzle of the barrel it starts accelerating toward the center of the earth.
-"Accelerating toward the center of the earth" does not necessarily mean that is is getting closer to earth for the initial portion of the flight.  You have to look at the trajectory and figure out the apex point.  The bullet gets closer to the earth after it has passed the apex and is getting further from the earth before it passes the apex.  However, it is accelerating toward the earth the whole time: before and after the apex.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 15:22
Well said.

We can move on to other things now.

Or not.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 15:55
I didn't redefine anything... I merely resorted to PHYSICS.  A discipline some of you ignore.  Physics is correct at all times... bullets begin to FALL as soon as they leave the barrel, no matter where the the hole in the barrel is pointes... UP, down, sideways.  As soon as the bullet leaves the barrel it begins to FALL.

I've redefined nothing, you however continue to try...


Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 16:06
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I didn't redefine anything... I merely resorted to PHYSICS.  A discipline some of you ignore.  Physics is correct at all times... bullets begin to FALL as soon as they leave the barrel, no matter where the the hole in the barrel is pointes... UP, down, sideways.  As soon as the bullet leaves the barrel it begins to FALL.

I've redefined nothing, you however continue to try...



That is simply not correct unless you re-define the frame of reference from earth to the bore axis of the barrel (or unless you are shooting downhill).

The definition of the verb fall is very simple:
"Move downward, typically rapidly and freely without control, from a higher to a lower level"

This is very basic kinematics.

For a typical rifle shot, the barrel is pointed slightly upward.  Initial velocity of the bullet can be split into two projections: vertical and horizontal.  The vertical projection vector is initially pointing upward as the bullet rises somewhat with respect to the earth.  Since it is continuously decelerating, at some point (the apex of the trajectory), vertical velocity becomes zero and after that the bullet actually begins to fall.

All you need to do to verify the terminology is get a dictionary and an introductory physics textbook.  Basic kinematics is covered in the first few chapters.  

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 19:18
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:


vs 




look at the line furthest to the right.

which one is correct....

Dan and I believe the bottom.... So we are wrong because we believe regardless of angle the bullet gravity comes into effect immediately.

Dan wouldn't know anything about this....CIWS  or Phalanx 


we do understand bullets being angled up but we also know they are immediately affected by gravity so as to drop immediately off their line or angle as figure two shows...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 19:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 19:34
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

[QUOTE=338LAPUASLAP]

vs 







You are wrong because you are misinterpreting your own drawing and not reading carefully what I wrote.

If you look at your own drawing, you will note that you have faithfully drawn the trajectory of the bullet to include the apex point (the highest point in the trajectory).

Until the bullet reaches that point, it is not falling toward the earth.  It is accelerating toward the earth, but not yet falling.  Falling means "getting closer to the earth".  Nothing else.

Because the bullet has some initial upward velocity due to the way the barrel is angled in your sketch, it first rises a little with respect to the earth, toward the highest point in your trajectory.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 20:05
You simply misunderstand trajectory, ILya.  If it were not "getting closer to the earth", the bullet would be traveling in a straight line until the point where gravity and drag completely overcome the upward vertical component of velocity...   It is traveling a curved path back toward the earth, from the instant it leaves the barrel.  Once the bullet leaves the barrel it departs the bore line and begins its "fall" toward the earth.  How does this sound... "it has a downward acceleration, but it's not moving that way"???  You are correct  in the sense that we are departing on definitions of terms, but your concept is in error.  Yes, the bullet continues to rise on the vertical component of velocity, until that vertical component is completly overcome by gravity (and drag), but the decay from the vertical component continues to be down.  The bullet is therefore rising and falling at the same time... unless it is fired directly horizontally, in which case there is no upward vertical component, or if it is fired "down"... once again no upward vertical component.  There is a horizontal component of velocity that is relatively constant, only impacted by drag.  If, as in most projectile problems, drag is ignored, the horizontal component is "constant".  
Gravity, as you have admitted is an acceleration.  Acceleration is a vector quantity with magnitude and direction... the acceleration of gravity, on earth, is 9.8m/s2  toward the center of the gravitational body... in this case the earth.  Magnitude in a direction in space is MOVEMENT in that direction.  Gravity is always DOWN.  
Now if you provide some acceleration to your bullet once it leave the barrel, my and 338's arguments fail, but a projectile is, by definition a "falling body" whose only acceleration is the acceleration of gravity.  

I admit that initially, the "fall" is very small... unnoticeable in a visual sense, only the finest of instruments can detect it.  That does not change the fact that the bullet is falling from the instant it leaves the barrel and that fall increases as gravity and drag affect it over time.  
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 20:20
Dan, I am pretty solid on how trajectory works.  It is very basic physics.

You are pulling a JG on me and redefining what "falling" means.

The verb "fall" does not mean "accelerate toward earth" it means "move toward earth".

Movement is, by definition, in the same direction as velocity, not necessarily in the same direction as acceleration.   Under the influence of gravity, the vertical velocity vector changes its direction at the highest point of the trajectory.

The bullet in the sketch above does not start moving toward earth until it passes through the apex point.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 20:47
I never said FALL... Unless I was quoting RC.

I am not wrong about my horrible drawing very clearly I see a bullet that is dropping upon exit never able to gain or rise above the angle of that which is was fired immediately slowing and being pulled and acted upon by gravity not miraculously gaining and being unaffected during its ascent to the highest point or apex point and then "falling"...

This is not hard really.

It cannot have overcome "basic physics".

Maybe again I am unaware of this newly found scientific discovery of a bullet being able to climb the angle from which is was fired from and gain upward or inverted arc exchange or reverse the pull and angular drop shift of which normal gravitational pull causes as well as the forces acted upon by environmental variables.

Let us extend a line in red out of the barrel but continuing that angle to more clearly understand my view... showing the bullet is always less than the angle it was fired due to physics...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 20:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 21:00
blue path is now barrel not perpendicular as previously stated...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2013 at 10:52
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

I never said FALL... Unless I was quoting RC.

I am not wrong about my horrible drawing very clearly I see a bullet that is dropping upon exit never able to gain or rise above the angle of that which is was fired immediately slowing and being pulled and acted upon by gravity not miraculously gaining and being unaffected during its ascent to the highest point or apex point and then "falling"...

This is not hard really.

It cannot have overcome "basic physics".

Maybe again I am unaware of this newly found scientific discovery of a bullet being able to climb the angle from which is was fired from and gain upward or inverted arc exchange or reverse the pull and angular drop shift of which normal gravitational pull causes as well as the forces acted upon by environmental variables.

Let us extend a line in red out of the barrel but continuing that angle to more clearly understand my view... showing the bullet is always less than the angle it was fired due to physics...

Dan said fall.

You drawing with the red lien is absolutely correct and the bullet does immediately drop below the barrel axis upon leaving the muzzle.  However, for the angle you have drawn, it does not immediately start dropping or falling with respect to the earth, until it reached the highest point in the trajectory.

ILya
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