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will rain and high humidity.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2013 at 13:38
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was wondering if rain, low temperatures and high humidity have any effect on bullet speed..does it cause drag or does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2013 at 14:07
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All have an effect. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/13/2013 at 15:52
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was wondering if:

rain = High Drag full value decrease distance or increase in elevation per x feet of rain per type light heavy per direction per SPEED (that is the biggest impact)  

low temperatures = causes high or low impact based upon many factors: no moisture in the air at extreme low temps causes bullet flight path to remain more constant for longer period of time... the temp of the case the primer the powder the temp of the every part in the path of the bullet and surrounding the cartridge the chamber the barrel all have an extreme effect.  Kodiak Alaska has a a few day course on the effects of cold weather on just the cartridge and the firearm all else being equal they assume you already know about the humidity change and the other atmospheric changes present.

high humidity:  dense air vs light air usually many other factors come into play for high humidity as hot air holds lots moisture more easily the bullet it self sees this as drag as you questioned.

All slow the bullet nothing every increases the bullet speed since the bullet exists the barrel and hits the atmosphere many forces fight the bullet down and inhibit the speed of the bullet.


have any effect on bullet speed..

does it cause drag or 

does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path... NO such thing the turbulence the bullet tip or nose creates cannot protect it self in a forcefield or clear a shockwave making it not affected by the laws of physics. 


many models of complex math can prove this but if you think logically it makes sense just like you throw a baseball everything wants that ball to stop except you.

Mile high stadium is easy to knock them out of the park but still physics fights the ball down...


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 11:09
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

was wondering if:

rain = High Drag full value decrease distance or increase in elevation per x feet of rain per type light heavy per direction per SPEED (that is the biggest impact)  

low temperatures = causes high or low impact based upon many factors: no moisture in the air at extreme low temps causes bullet flight path to remain more constant for longer period of time... the temp of the case the primer the powder the temp of the every part in the path of the bullet and surrounding the cartridge the chamber the barrel all have an extreme effect.  Kodiak Alaska has a a few day course on the effects of cold weather on just the cartridge and the firearm all else being equal they assume you already know about the humidity change and the other atmospheric changes present.

high humidity:  dense air vs light air usually many other factors come into play for high humidity as hot air holds lots moisture more easily the bullet it self sees this as drag as you questioned.

All slow the bullet nothing every increases the bullet speed since the bullet exists the barrel and hits the atmosphere many forces fight the bullet down and inhibit the speed of the bullet.


have any effect on bullet speed..

does it cause drag or 

does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path... NO such thing the turbulence the bullet tip or nose creates cannot protect it self in a forcefield or clear a shockwave making it not affected by the laws of physics. 


many models of complex math can prove this but if you think logically it makes sense just like you throw a baseball everything wants that ball to stop except you.

Mile high stadium is easy to knock them out of the park but still physics fights the ball down...


Perhaps you should elaborate on those... I don't think you said exactly what you meant...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 11:37
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Yea, a little off the mark, but then again, you were Army, right?


Humidity, like high temperature, decreases air density; and lower air density means less drag on the bullet.

If you look at a good ballistics program, like JBM, there will always be variables of temp, barometric pressure, altitude, and humidity.  Unless you go to extremes or the ranges get long, you won't notice big changes; but  at distance and at the extremes of environmental conditions will see big changes in bullet flight.


Carry on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 12:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 14:12
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I'm not back tracking reread what I wrote no I'm not good with words but we said the same less the rain in 100% humidity...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 14:13
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I will repost when I am not driving
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 15:02
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Good idea.

Put down the phone.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 15:22
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Humidity, like high temperature, decreases air density; and lower air density means less drag on the bullet.

Yes, but the effects do not lift the bullet, regardless the bullet is still dropping.

Rain is High humidity but rain itself drives the bullet down and slows it as well as each collision occurs.  The bullet path never curves upwards.  Barometric pressure never allows the bullet to curve up even when shooting down into it our model in our math has to change to account for the changes in altitude and barometric and humidity and temps but the bullet never curves up our curve lessens but never moves upwards.

Now reread the post and hopefully it makes more sense.

Just as the constant or consistent drop in cold weather remains as severe.  
Just as the high humidity high temp less drag but still drag and never does it push the bullet.

Models are rated for this and my true point is that SPEED is really what effects a bullet, WIND is the better word for this but it can come in the form of "rain speed" or impact timing frequency as well.

My dense vs. light =  is showing low vs high (horrible as I did not explain but was rather trying to format the question for the OP.  Regardless it does not allow the bullet a time in a vacuum it is still drag while not as severe as the area, region, or zone where the humidity is moderate.

Lets take a shot taken from 2000ft to 800ft at 800m across a a mountain top to a surrounding town where a bad tree or a defective tree is the target. Biggest factor wind is taken out (later to be discussed if you want) The bullet has 4 zones  if you will 2 temperature 1 humidity and 1 elevation(in water column or mercury or Hg)  while some of these zones will not be as severe in drop they all show drop but the overall shot will impact at a higher point than anyone drop model due to barometric pressure... Maybe I just confused everyone a little more.

The idea is that even if the drag or pressure downward is not as great it never is moving up...High or Low Humidity or Temp doesn't matter changes the curve but never does the law ever not work against the bullet.


"rain = High Drag full value decrease distance or increase in elevation per x feet of rain per type light heavy per direction per SPEED (that is the biggest impact)  

low temperatures = causes high or low impact based upon many factors: no moisture in the air at extreme low temps causes bullet flight path to remain more constant for longer period of time... the temp of the case the primer the powder the temp of the every part in the path of the bullet and surrounding the cartridge the chamber the barrel all have an extreme effect.  Kodiak Alaska has a a few day course on the effects of cold weather on just the cartridge and the firearm all else being equal they assume you already know about the humidity change and the other atmospheric changes present.

high humidity:  dense air vs light air usually many other factors come into play for high humidity as hot air holds lots moisture more easily the bullet it self sees this as drag as you questioned.

All slow the bullet nothing every increases the bullet speed since the bullet exists the barrel and hits the atmosphere many forces fight the bullet down and inhibit the speed of the bullet.


have any effect on bullet speed..

does it cause drag or 

does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path... NO such thing the turbulence the bullet tip or nose creates cannot protect it self in a forcefield or clear a shockwave making it not affected by the laws of physics. 


many models of complex math can prove this but if you think logically it makes sense just like you throw a baseball everything wants that ball to stop except you.

Mile high stadium is easy to knock them out of the park but still physics fights the ball down..."



Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - August/14/2013 at 15:36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 15:33
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Better said to the OP.

The bullet path is one where the bullet will always be pulled towards the earths core.

Nothing can cause the bullet to be shielded from this effect, we could get into what happens through windows, and keyholes and shooting loops but that is for Rancid and KB.

As each obstruction or loophole and or keyhole is cleared the turbulence acts a curve upward(lessening drop curve) in overall Bullet Drop as the Turbulence boosts the bullet once cleared in milliseconds and assists the bullet forward, this is in some structures as depth and width and length vary so it is near impossible to compute from a distance but can be guesstimated by spoiler round... Some is also accounted to the hole as not turbulent air to begin with or non wind affected depending on hole direction and tunneling effect.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 15:39
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I am horrible with words never does it ever not seem this way...ClownBuckyWinkCoolBig GrinWhackoWhackoShocked
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/14/2013 at 17:54
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...I liked the part about the Earth's Core!!   Sounded like Edgar Rice Burroughs!!!    
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 09:46
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Better said to the OP.

The bullet path is one where the bullet will always be pulled towards the earths core.

Nothing can cause the bullet to be shielded from this effect, we could get into what happens through windows, and keyholes and shooting loops but that is for Rancid and KB.

As each obstruction or loophole and or keyhole is cleared the turbulence acts a curve upward(lessening drop curve) in overall Bullet Drop as the Turbulence boosts the bullet once cleared in milliseconds and assists the bullet forward, this is in some structures as depth and width and length vary so it is near impossible to compute from a distance but can be guesstimated by spoiler round... Some is also accounted to the hole as not turbulent air to begin with or non wind affected depending on hole direction and tunneling effect.

We are in 100% agreement on this.

I just wanted you to make it easy for me to understand, never questioned your understanding...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 09:47
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When the earth's poles flip, will that effect bullet flight?

How about the moon, does it impart any flight changes?

We had a protracted conversation years ago about bullet rising vs falling.  Some insisted that the bullet was always falling, I disagreed (adamantly) stating that falling, by definition, meant the distance between earth and bullet is always diminishing.  I understand the point that the bullet is always being sucked toward the earth's core (it contacts the surface, but does indeed get sucked toward the core), but a bullet is most definitely rising during  part of the flight to target.  In truth, the barrel always (in any case I can consider reasonable) points up relative to the optical line of sight.

Carry on, and all parties should understand we are giving each other a hard time because we value one another's input and knowledge.  Were little things like ( unintentionally) inaccurate statements pertaining to humidity and air density to stand, we'd all be worshipping the god that is JGRaider, speaker of the famous line, " If I sometimes use a word or two that's wrong or misplaced, is it really that big a deal?"

We simply have to hold ourselves to a MUCH higher standard than that!


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 13:25
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:



Humidity, like high temperature, decreases air density; and lower air density means less drag on the bullet.



I am not sure I follow you RC. Are you saying that high humidity decreases air density? I would say that high humidity increased air density.

Also someone said if I remember correctly something to the effect that when it is raining it is 100% humidity. That is not correct.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 13:55
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

When the earth's poles flip, will that effect bullet flight?

How about the moon, does it impart any flight changes?

We had a protracted conversation years ago about bullet rising vs falling.  Some insisted that the bullet was always falling, I disagreed (adamantly) stating that falling, by definition, meant the distance between earth and bullet is always diminishing.  I understand the point that the bullet is always being sucked toward the earth's core (it contacts the surface, but does indeed get sucked toward the core), but a bullet is most definitely rising during  part of the flight to target.  In truth, the barrel always (in any case I can consider reasonable) points up relative to the optical line of sight.

Carry on, and all parties should understand we are giving each other a hard time because we value one another's input and knowledge.  Were little things like ( unintentionally) inaccurate statements pertaining to humidity and air density to stand, we'd all be worshipping the god that is JGRaider, speaker of the famous line, " If I sometimes use a word or two that's wrong or misplaced, is it really that big a deal?"

We simply have to hold ourselves to a MUCH higher standard than that!


I'm glad this got re-instituted.. tally ho...
As long as you concede that the bullet never "rises" above the "line of bore", we have some agreement.  However, it DOES begin to "Fall" immediately upon departure from the barrel, unless your bullet is continuously propelled.  Since bullets are ballistic creatures, propulsion ends immediately upon departure from the barrel. in some cases before.    Traveling along an upward trajectory and still "falling" are not contradictory situations.  If you wish to define "falling" only as when all "upward" motion has ceased, that is a simplistic way of looking at it and only partially correct.  Although the fall is infinitesimal in the first micro/milliseconds, it is still there. There is a downward vector of motion as soon as propulsion is removed.  As drag and gravity exert greater influence due to loss of velocity, downward motion becomes more pronounced, and therefore "visible" (which is what some term "falling").  The semi-parabolic curve begins immediately upon departure from the barrel.  If your bullet has continuous propulsion and reaches "escape velocity", then it never falls, unless/until it reaches some greater gravitational field...
Effects of pole reversal are really an "unknown".  It has not occurred in recent history.  We know it has happened and it appears the effects are minimal since it occurs over millennia.  If it were rapid, my guess is that you would see significant impacts.  We are way overdue for a pole reversal... perhaps we will get to find out. 
Since the moon's effects are, in spatial concepts, relatively constant, it is "already accounted for".  If the moon were suddenly pushed off its axis or orbit, then yes, you would see some impacts, however their effects on bullet trajectory would probably not be your greatest concern.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 14:04
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thanks for the imput fella's....
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Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:



Humidity, like high temperature, decreases air density; and lower air density means less drag on the bullet.



I am not sure I follow you RC. Are you saying that high humidity decreases air density? I would say that high humidity increased air density.

Also someone said if I remember correctly something to the effect that when it is raining it is 100% humidity. That is not correct.

humidity does, in fact, decrease air density... water vapor, humid air (dominated by H20), has lower molecular weight than dry air (dominated by N2 and O2)... since number of molecules is constant, decreased mass in a given volume, therefore, less dense.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 14:14
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Southern hemisphere shots are a different factor of CA than that of northern hemisphere. 

\mathbf{r}_A (t) = vt\ \left( \cos (\theta ), \ \sin (\theta )\right) \ .

In the turntable frame (denoted B), the xy axes rotate at angular rate ω, so the trajectory becomes:

\mathbf{r}_B (t) = vt\ \left( \cos ( \theta - \omega t), \ \sin ( \theta - \omega t)\right) \ ,

and three examples of this result are plotted in the figure.

To determine the components of acceleration, a general expression is used from the article fictitious force:

  \mathbf{a}_{B} =  \mathbf{a}_A {}- 2 \boldsymbol\Omega \times \mathbf{v}_{B} {}- \boldsymbol\Omega \times (\boldsymbol\Omega \times \mathbf{r}_B ) {}- \frac{d \boldsymbol\Omega}{dt} \times \mathbf{r}_B \ ,

in which the term in Ω × vB is the Coriolis acceleration and the term in Ω × ( Ω × rB) is the centrifugal acceleration. The results are (let α = θ − ωt):

 \boldsymbol{\Omega} \mathbf{\times r_B} = \begin{vmatrix} \boldsymbol{i}&\boldsymbol{j}&\boldsymbol{k} \\ 0 & 0 & \omega \\ v t \cos \alpha & vt \sin \alpha & 0 \end{vmatrix}\ = \omega t v \left(-\sin\alpha, \cos\alpha\right )\ ,
\boldsymbol{\Omega \ \times} \left( \boldsymbol{\Omega} \mathbf{\times r_B}\right) = \begin{vmatrix} \boldsymbol{i}&\boldsymbol{j}&\boldsymbol{k} \\ 0 & 0 & \omega \\ -\omega t v \sin\alpha & \omega t v \cos\alpha & 0 \end{vmatrix}\ \ ,

producing a centrifugal acceleration:



 \mathbf{a_{\mathrm{Cfgl}}}= \omega^2 v t \left(\cos\alpha, \sin\alpha\right )=\omega^2 \mathbf{r_B}(t) \ .

Also:


No one
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:



Humidity, like high temperature, decreases air density; and lower air density means less drag on the bullet.



I am not sure I follow you RC. Are you saying that high humidity decreases air density? I would say that high humidity increased air density.

Also someone said if I remember correctly something to the effect that when it is raining it is 100% humidity. That is not correct.

humidity does, in fact, decrease air density... water vapor, humid air (dominated by H20), has lower molecular weight than dry air (dominated by N2 and O2)... since number of molecules is constant, decreased mass in a given volume, therefore, less dense.  


Thanks KB, I think I had a geriatric moment.
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Just reread this.

To answer you are right it does not have to be 100% humidity for it to rain or it vice versa but if you don't want to put that into your math when you are shooting in a heavy rain don't expect first round hits.

if you are a SWAG shooter please add a full value in rain yes less dense at 100% and therefore the bullet is able to maintain its velocity for a longer period but the rain itself is driving the bullet down and each collision of H2O is causing minute(small) direction changes usually downward to account for as well so a full value must be used every X feet per X feet of rain.  At X distance you loose 1 Mil is your backwards math as all rains are different you have to judge the rain no calculator I know can do this math for you yet...

So shoot calculate loss at x distance than multiply by your final distance your mil of drop for rain.Or when you get to a mil than use that as your variable factor.
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OR... only shoot in the desert (not in monsoon season)...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/15/2013 at 17:10
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Newton was right, frame of reference is very, VERY important.

On the topic of falling bullets: were the barrel to be perfectly parallel to the surface of the earth, the bullet would immediately begin to fall; however, as stated, the barrel is not parallel, it is pointed up - relative to the optical line of sight.

Now, on frame of reference: "falling" is relative to the interactions of 2 specified objects.  The bullet falling to earth is a function of the masses and the distances between the 2.  "Falling" is not the same as "being acted upon by gravitational forces."  As I stated when we did this last time, a geosynchronous satellite is always being pulled toward earth, but is not falling toward earth - meaning the distance between the 2 objects is not diminishing.

So, no additional force need to imparted on the bullet once it has left the muzzle for the bullet to rise; though it is constantly being sucked back toward earth by gravitation, it is not falling toward earth for the entire bullet flight. The "rise" is purely a function of the orientation of the muzzle when the bullets exits.  Point the muzzle straight down and that bullet falls the entire time.  Point it straight up and the bullet does indeed fall part of the time, but only after it has expended all its kinetic energy fighting gravitation, at which time its energy is potential, and gravitation wins.

Gravitation doesn't blow, it sucks!

So...


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - August/15/2013 at 19:58
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Rancid you are seemingly talking about two things that are not related...

I really do not believe you can talk about things in space (as that is why it is called or referenced space) and things that are bound by earths constants.

regardless of angle the bullet never rises the trig of it is downward or - so if you want to reference it do so on X and Y.

The "fall" is ridiculous, you are referencing many things in here that are not related, just as you are mistakenly bringing many things kinetic energy, mass, weight, force...

I think that the applied terminology and or definition(s) is/are the issues.

Maybe we can throw the word fall out the window since it has nothing to do with bullets...

Keep it simple:
'propelled object i.e. bullet fired from said rifle in the earths atmosphere under normal conditions (no vacuum, earths gravitational force as experienced by objects on earth), barometric pressure, temp, humidity, altitude, WIND, other environmental conditions and internal and external ballistics effect on bullets impact and translated into terminal ballistics and effect on target (reference to angle of scope and barrel we all understand no one is taking a level shot but are using advanced trig, or impact point is not linear vs point of aim or  POA vs. POI will be at angles"

If we all remember this is where 338 got into a pissing match a long time ago and had to start thinking and call some things into question.  

Where in the world did Fall get into this?  I think I said that already...






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