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Wideview Super Sniper?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2007 at 08:42
Blade_Zero View Drop Down
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Has any manafacturer explored this concept?  There are a few patents for binoculars with such.  Large astronomy telescopes apparently use elliptical objective lenses.

 

Would there be any image distortion?

 

If possible, I think a SS16x scope with an objective 42mm high but 65mm~80mm wide, that would deliver FOV & Exit Pupil performance equivlent to the SS10x42, would make it a fantastic long range scope, 

 



Edited by Blade_Zero
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2007 at 09:00
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
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Hi

 

You have unfortunatly  missunderstood the principles a bit.

The objetive has nothing to do with the field of view, but only how much light the scope takes in and as well a bit of the resulution.

 

The wide angle feature is in the heart of the optical construcion, the ocular.

There is different ways of gaining wide FOV, one is shorter eyerelief, and another is bigger ocular.

30 years ago did Redfield made scopes with wider than high  oculars and this way got a "TV lookalike" picture.

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2007 at 09:31
Blade_Zero View Drop Down
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Thanks for that Technika,

 

Are there any drawbacks to having a panoramic/truncated ocular for increased FOV and panoramic/truncated  objective for increased light gathering?

 

Would I be correct in assuming the popularity of variable scopes is because of their ability to adjust FOV for various ranges via magnification, yet still have high magnification available when required?  If so, could the redfield approach be considered as an alternative to variable scopes, giving good FOV at high fixed magnification?

 

How would the Redfield Widefield approach stack up against a FFP recticle variable mag scope in terms of cost, complexity, weight and ruggedness? 



Edited by Blade_Zero
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2007 at 15:37
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Congradulations -- you get the Linus Pauling Axiom award, "" Thats not right, its not even wrong"".

Any type of ellipse would have two focus, making collminating impossible (except in organic pumped lasers where the activated photons are transferred to something like the first set of mirrors). I think your are referring to aspherical lens, as made by Canon etc. , which on their part are used to make lens that are faster within the same or smaller specs. than a comparable f/stop. However it adds considerably to the cost, but saves in size and weight. There other advantage is in extremely cheap optics such as throw away cameras where the plastic lens can be made flatter for longer without the higher costs of parabolic polishing.

Simmons atec (had one) has this and for the money isn't to bad a deal,nothing in the area of an SS.

The reason variables are popular is you can change the same scope on different guns for different purposes.

The widefield has no larger (got one) field than any other 3x9 based on it's optical design, and acheived this simply by using to flats at the top and bottom to cut of the view giving the illusion. something like HDAdd --high definition attention deficiency disorder, not in focus most of the time, but when it is -its really clear.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2007 at 16:34
Blade_Zero View Drop Down
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Sorry about my incorrect assumptions Dale,

 

I don't think it's fair to compare the Redfield widefield to another scope whose ocular and objective dimensions equal the width, rather than hight of the widefield.  If compared hight for hight then the widefield has 30% greater FOV.

 

The main thrust of my post was that the SS10x42 has excellent performance for it's price but the SS16x42 obviously does not equal the 10x's FOV or brightness.  For the 16x to do so would require the ocular & objective to be scaled up approximately 50%.  A SS16x65 with corresponding ocular, would be awkward compared to the original SS16x42 but a SS16x42x65 would have no additional burden.

 

I think we concur on variable scopes popularity, it's because of their flexibility for different missions, ranges & lighting conditions.  You don't reduce the magnification on a variable scope because the target is brought too close, you reduce it because the brightness, resolution or FOV are unsatisfactory.  In this regard a SS16x42x65 could be considered equal to 10-16x42 variable scope, you have the benefit of 16x magnification, optical performance of the 10x and the handling characteristics of a 42mm objective.

 

Here is what Chuck Hawk thinks of the widefield scope design.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/redfield_widefield_scopes.htm   

 

Edited to add:

I'd just like to add a few caveats to the above. 

 

I accept that there is such a thing a too much magnification, especially when shooting freehand.  The SS10x42 has an optimal range envelope of 200yds to 1000yds, the SS16x42X65 would have an optimal range envelope of 200yds to 1700yds.

 

This suggested SS16x was not intended to replace SS10x which is currently offering a viable alternative to the MkIV M3 but rather offer a viable alternative to the Nightforce 20x & 15x variable scopes.

 

 

 



Edited by Blade_Zero
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2007 at 19:56
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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You got to use a widefield to appreciate there just isn't anything more going on.

going to avoid chuck hawks

personally I reduce magnification (and increase) to get the lay of the ground and read thermos. , If on trigger time is long enough, resolution and brightness mean nothing.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2007 at 19:36
koshkin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

Hi

 

You have unfortunatly  missunderstood the principles a bit.

The objetive has nothing to do with the field of view, but only how much light the scope takes in and as well a bit of the resulution.

 

The wide angle feature is in the heart of the optical construcion, the ocular.

There is different ways of gaining wide FOV, one is shorter eyerelief, and another is bigger ocular.

30 years ago did Redfield made scopes with wider than high  oculars and this way got a "TV lookalike" picture.

 

Regards Technika



You are certainly correct about the ocular construction being ultimately responsible for the field of view, but the objective lens size is still very much involved. 

I have not looked at this in a while so I may be a little rusty here, but if memory serves me right, trying to get a wide field of view with a large objective lens typically results in having an ocular with a very long focal length.  That, in turn, requires larger lenses inside the ocular.  Hence with the same size ocular you can comfortably get a larger field of view with a smaller objective lens.  If you try to increase the objective lens at the same magnification and with the same size ocular you either have to decrease the field of view or suffer significant aberrations due to the F-ratio of the objective lens becoming too fast.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2007 at 19:43
koshkin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Blade_Zero Blade_Zero wrote:

Has any manafacturer explored this concept?  There are a few patents for binoculars with such.  Large astronomy telescopes apparently use elliptical objective lenses.

 

Would there be any image distortion?

 

If possible, I think a SS16x scope with an objective 42mm high but 65mm~80mm wide, that would deliver FOV & Exit Pupil performance equivlent to the SS10x42, would make it a fantastic long range scope, 

 



I think to get a more accurate answer you need to post a link to where you read about these elliptical objective lenses.  I am inclined to think that the reference was to aspherical lenses (which can help cut down on some aberrations), but it is hard to say without an exact reference to what you are talking about.

ILya
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