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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 09:08
Imagunsmith View Drop Down
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Hey Guys, No disrespect intended, but can someone tell me why most are insisting on paying more for thier optics than they paid for the rifle they are going to put it on. I'm a 45 year old gunsmith, and have shoot literally hundreds of thousands of rounds in everything from a 22 short though the awsome 50 cal Barret. And have only had one scope to malfunction, this was on a Sako M995 in a 7mm STW, and it completely gutted the scope. I have used Tasco's, Swift's, Simmons, Bushnells, Redfeilds, Leupolds, Baush & Lomb, Weaver's (both makes), and Swavorskis. And for hunting purposes wouldn't turn a hand over for the difference in any of them. I accurize everything I shoot, from the mounting system to the bedding, and obtain 1/4 MOA from them all or they don't go into the woods with me. Like I said, "I mean no disrespect" but WHY!!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 09:34
martin3175 View Drop Down
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Why  do some folks drive Porsches, when a Chevy will get you there??

 

 

  For riflescopes, I guess it comes down to optics clarity, reputation, reliability ( imagined or otherwise ) , or for some- just outdoing the other guys, etc......



Edited by martin3175
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 09:44
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I think "outdoing the other guys" or keeping up with the Jones is more than likely right!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 10:01
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Between higher end scopes and lower end scopes for dusk to dawn hunting. The price is more than justified I believe. What you see through a Swarovski just before the sun comes up and just after it goes down compared to a lower line scope will be night and day. Yeah you can do just about anything you want with a gun with pretty much any brand of scope on top. When one buys optics that is usually where most of his/her money is going towards....... optics.  Most scopes will track and perform and not give you any problems ever (considering they're not faulty to begin with). What sets scopes apart are how they perform optically.

 

 This same argument can be said with just about every consumer good out there. Why pay more when something half the price will "get the job done"? Well some people just want the best, and they're willing to pay for the best.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 12:18
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If one were to get the "best" then there would only be one product on the market because it is the "best" by definition. Obviously not everyone agrees what is the best.  Without the constrant of price the word "best" makes sense, with that constraint "best" is meaningless. Given the constraint of price and a $1000 price limit one could buy a new $200 scope every year for 5 years say, would the single purchase item still be the best standing up against the new $200 scope. I'm sure there are some that would say yes, and some that would say no. A mechanic that knows his own Chevy knows he has a better car than the "it's how you arrive" porsche buyer. Given the same amount to "spend" on any car- the chevy will outperform the Porsche every time. Pumping an additional $80,000 in a chevy to bring it up to a Porsche may not appeal to some, but when was the last time you say a Porsche at the nhra internationals, or a NASCAR race?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 12:36
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Bottom Line for me is that I go for a step up in quality over quantity in rifles and optics.  I spend a tad more on my optics intead of buying more rifles.  I feel I spend far too much time and expense shooting/hunting to go with the base optics.  To me it's an easy choice because I truly enjoy what I have.  I hardly ever buy new (although the Kimber 84M is talking to me so sweetly right now but I just can't afford it) and do a lot more looking than buying. 

I think in general, for any consumer product, going in the middle price range usually works out best in the long run.  I don't have to replace things as often and get better performance than getting the cheapest product available.  I don't think anyone would argue that a $200 scope is going to be better than a $400 scope when it comes to quality of the optics.  IMO once you get past this point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in big time....

I own or have owned Zeiss Conquest, Kahles AH, Leupold VX-II, Tasco, and Simmons...the first two knock the socks off the others at or near dark.  that extra clarity/brightness/visibility proves useful for sure and I wouldn't trade it....

As someone said on another post, drink cheaper beer....and to that I add (since I am a fan of Sam Adams almost eclusively these days and free beer of course)g, drink less, be a DD, fire up the grill instead of going out....there are a hundred ways to make up the difference.  That being said I buy maybe one gun a year and try to get some sort of satisfactory optics in the deal....

 

I don't have near the collection as some of my friends, but what I do have is nice and can shoot.  Having a few that I shoot really well sure beats having more that I can't, but I'm rambling at this point.  

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 13:12
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Right on model188mattie!  I'm pretty much in agreement with what you are saying.  Hey Imagunsmith, how many wilderness hunting trips have you been on with your cheap scopes?  How many times have you looked at game through your cheap scopes in the fog or failing light?  How many times have you "knocked" your scope while out hunting?

If you shoot thousands of rounds like you say you do there is no way that you can't tell the difference in quality between a cheap scope and expensive one.  I shoot thousands of rounds a year myself with "better than middle of the road guns" as well as some custom guns, and I won't put a cheap scope on a $3,000 rifle; you have to explain that one to me!  I used to shoot cheap scopes but then looked through a couple Swarovski's and Zeiss' ; maybe you need to get your eyes checked!
 
I too am a 45 year old and don't have time to settle for medicrity in optics or firearms!  You must hunt in a perfect world to get by with average scopes.  Oh yeah, who do you think you're kidding with a statement like "my guns all shoot 1/4 MOA  or they don't go in the woods with me"; lies that that won't fly with this crowd! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 13:33
Imagunsmith View Drop Down
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well gozarin, I hunt in the same world as most people, of course their will be a few exceptions like yourself. The kind that like to sit around the campfire and talk about what they have in their rig. And as far as "you have to explain that one to me!", some people you just can't explain anything to, because like I said in one other post, "what others tell you is best is what they have themselves". And if you hunt with guns that won't (or you can't make produce 1/4 MOA groups, which is probaly the case) then you need to do the game a favor and stay at home or hunt only with a scattergun.

So the next time you decide to call someone a lier on here, make sure you can stand behind your mouth, and  make sure your not looking in the mirror, it makes you really look bad. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 13:46
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Imagunsmith; what scope do you shoot 1/4 MOA with?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 13:50
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Weavers, Nikons, Bushnell and a couple of the jap made Simmons and Tasco's. I import a scope from China right now and it looks pretty promising.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 15:18
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Hey Guys my apologizes, the distance of measure should have been 1 MOA (1.047) instead of 1/4 MOA, my son was running ballistics at 400 yards on another pc at the time of my posting, and I was talking to him at the same time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 16:33
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  To put it simple my Dad always said "You can only shoot as good as you can see'. I have had many guns that had scopes that cost more than the gun. Why would you need a custom rifle that shoot's 1/8moa at 100 yards when a off the shelf factory rifle that shoots 1.5moa at 100 yards? 1.5moa is better than I can shoot sitting in a tree stand off handed or with a light rest at a deer. Basiclly If you can' see it at dusk/daylight you can't shoot it no matter how nice your rifle is. If you are punching papper at the target range during bright daylight you might choose that 1/8moa rifle and whatever scope. For hunting morning and dusk I would take the cheaper rifle and nicer scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 17:15
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Very well said Terry, I agree
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 17:22
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The scope ( or any product ) that is considered the best value is almost never the most expensive or sought after... A mid-priced $300-$500 scope will perform 98% as well as a $1500 "German/Austrian wonderglass"...Don't get me wrong, if I just signed with my favorite football team for $7 zillion a year. I'd probably go with the "wonderglass", but for now I've gotta opt for the best value.



Edited by martin3175
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 18:29
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The real reason most people will shell out $500 plus for a quality name brand scope is because there are more people like me then you. And the diference between us is education. Not schoolastic, but everything else involved in shooting. Most guys like me want someone to tell us, which gun to buy, which scope to put on it, and now go ahead and take that 350 yrd shot.  Money isn't important.

 

Well, I'm slowly realizing that I need to learn a whole lot more about shooting. I've just spent the last three weeks reading and learning about optics. I have finaly decided on a new scope, a $500 scope. And guess what, Now I realize that the base and rings are just as important! Here we go again. Can someone please tell me who make the best rings!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 18:33
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I think it should be said that having higher quality optics doesn't replace any of the other preparation that goes into making a hunt successful. 

 

I am lucky to be fortunate enough to afford the scopes in the $200-400 range.  Using the Sample List I've done very well.  I also think that nobody should interpret most/any of the comments (at least that's my opinion of what everyone is saying) to mean that using anything less than a 200-400 scope is pointless or asking for trouble.  But these so called "mid-range" scopes are better and in my opinion, if I were in a different financial position, I would save my pennies until I could afford one. 

 

I've found that by controlling the impulse to buy every rifle that I like, which is lots of them, I can wait out and find the right rifle at the right price and then afford to put a decent scope on it.  I still come back to the point that I spend too much time into this to not go with something a little better.

 

Regret also comes with a high price tag.  Missing that buck of a lifetime because it's about dark and I can't quite see what it is will have me wishing that I spent more than the amount I saved by going with cheaper optics. 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 19:24
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I mean no disrespect but "Why not?". At 51, my eyes have suffered from years on the water and in the FL sun; they're not getting better. I can use the help in that respect. And if a scope can give me 15- 30 minutes of usuable/shootable light on either end of the day, I'll take it everyday!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 20:27
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I've had to return 4 scopes in the last 14 months---1 Nikon 2 zeiss conquest 1 leu vxiii,not to mention a 6x burris sig 4 times alone and it still won't stay zeroed! The higher end scopes seem to work better for me.For me,it seems that anything under 400$ only lasts about 250-300 rounds.Thats why for me.I'm finding I'm too poor to buy cheap.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 20:43
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just curious what're you putting those on?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2005 at 22:52
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 I agree the higher end optics are great for clarity! However, I'm not convinced of the "under $400" models failing with that few rounds. I've had Tasco's (not my favorite) last more rounds than that!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2005 at 00:08
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Hey Imagunsmith I going to have to disagree with you on this one.  You mentioned that you have used Tasco and Swarovski scopes.  I will assume that you have owned both but I could be wrong.  But if I'm right than that Swarovski scope must have been mounted on a 2,000 or maybe a 3,000 dollar gun because you wouldn't dare have that scope on a 500 or 600 dollar gun?  So I'm assuming that if it was a 2,000 or 3,000 dollar gun than you borrowed it from Gozarian because he has good taste.  Since you have used them all, It is difficult for me to believe that anybody would not be able to tell the difference between a Tasco vs a  Swarovski in the field.  Maybe the average person would not notice much of a difference between the scopes when shooting targets at 100 yard range on a bright sunny day at high noon, or staring down tubes in a well lite store.  But, can you honestly tell me that if you saw the buck of a lifetime standing 300 yards away in a low light situation caused by sunrise, sunset, bad weather, or a dense wooded area that you would prefer your trusty ole Tasco over a Swarovski?  Come on, get real, because if you actually do believe that then you might want to consider outsourceing those bedding jobs and stay away from the epoxy.  But, you did make a bold statement in another post that can see gnats flying around a deer at 300 yards when your scope is selected at 9 power, and also, 9 power is too much at 300 yards when shooting deer.  If what you are saying is true, than you have the eyes of either Superman or Mr. Magoo.              
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2005 at 00:16
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300 wby ate most of 'em.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2005 at 11:00
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BillD1, I suggest you try and read posts fully and try to understand them before you embarass yourself like this. By the way hows your Marlin 336 doing? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2005 at 12:47
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Originally posted by Imagunsmith Imagunsmith wrote:

Weavers, Nikons, Bushnell and a couple of the jap made Simmons and Tasco's. I import a scope from China right now and it looks pretty promising.

 

When you say you import a scope right now from China, did you mean that you imported one to hunt and shoot with for your self or did you imported a bunch to sell to others?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2005 at 13:30
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Imagunsmith
You build 1/4MOA hunting rifles??  That is amazing. How do you accomplish that?

Knowing now that you build 1/4MOA hunting rifles, I find it odd you balked at the idea of using a torque wrench to mount a scope base.



Edited by Boomholzer
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