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Why no giant scopes? Like 300mm objective?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 09:20
spystyle View Drop Down
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Hello from Maine,

I have recently taken up target shooting, as in shooting very small things with a very accurate rifle. And I saw right away the need for high magnification.

But I see that target scopes aren't shaped different than hunting scopes. Hunting scopes have to be small as they will be lugged around in the woods - quite the opposite, benchrest and target scopes, especially on rail guns :



Will not be lugged around in the woods and don't need to be so small.

So I see the reviews of these high power target scopes and they always mention (on the lower priced ones anyway) that "exit pupil" was poor, which is to say the image was not bright, which is to say the objective lens' size was not proportional to the magnification.

As you know, objective lens size divided by magnification equals exit pupil (or brightness). 7 is great, like 4X32 scopes and 8X56 scopes. But to achieve that same brightness on a 40X scope it's objective lens would have to be (40 times 7) 280mm.

So why aren't manufacturers making big scopes for the benchrest guys? Why still a small profile?

Cheers,
Craig

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 09:42
silver View Drop Down
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It's not like the target is moving... Or being shot at dark...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 09:43
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How would you expect to ever use a scope that large on a rifle.  280mm would be an 11 inch scope.  That would put the center of your eyepiece at a minimum of 7 inches above your bore.  How would you expect to shoot it like that.  You could not achieve a cheek weld on the stock, which means the stock would be under your arm pit which means all you could do is float your head around behind the scope and pull the trigger.  You would have no consistency from shot to shot.  With out that consistency of being behind the rifle the same way every time you could never shoot well. 

I suppose if you built a gun like you put in the pic that is not make to even touch it would work.  But a setup like that on a real rifle that is meant to actually be used by a person it would not work to well.  That rifle probably has an electronic remote trigger and all it is for is accuracy.  But it would not be shooter accuracy but equipment accuracy.  I say what is the fun in that, unless you are testing bullet designs or new powders to see how they can really perform.

My suggestion to you is fork out some cash go to a school that teaches the precision rifle.  Spend 4 or 5 days learning how to shoot and learning why things are designed the way they are.  The more time you spend around guys that were snipers and riflemen for a living you really begin to understand how things need to be set up to best suit your shooting style and needs.  For a rifle that an actual person shoots I just don't see how a scope that large could work, unless you designed a completely different style rifle that would allow you to fit a scope that large and still be able to shoot it. 

I am not a target competition shooter, so I have a hard time with these high power scopes.  One of the guys that teaches at the school I attend uses a 10x Leupold on a custom rifle he built.  I have seen a target and pics he when shoot a 1.9 inch group at 600 yards from ontop of the SWAT tower which is 50 feet up and there was a 10 mph wind cross wind at the tower and who knows what was going on between him and the target.  All that with a 10x scope. 

I guess if you have a rifle that all it does is sit on a bench in a vise and it is never moved I could see it.  But that just does not sound like as much fun to me as actually being part of the equation of the accuracy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 09:58
spystyle View Drop Down
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

...You could not achieve a cheek weld on the stock...


I was thinking of a mirror array inside so the cheek weld would be the same as any 32mm objective lens scope, kinda like the same concept as the spotting scopes :



A scope does not have to be straight!

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

...The more time you spend around guys that were snipers and riflemen for a living you really begin to understand how things need to be set up to best suit your shooting style and needs....


That is PRECISELY what I'm talking about!!! The scopes we see on the benches today are all physically designed for hunting!  I'm talking about a wild departure, a scope built from the ground up for the bench. I'm talking about an innovative design that is purpose built for benchrest shooting. Someone should invent it.

Maybe I should invent it :)

Cheers,
Craig
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 09:59
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This is the largest one I know of besides the 75mm ATN which I would not recommend.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12565-310-zeiss-6-24x72-victory-diavari-34mm-rifle-scope.aspx

That would give you 3mm exit at 24x which is not to bad for a day shooting scope


Edited by supertool73 - July/31/2008 at 10:02
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 10:06
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I wonder what challenges they would face putting a reticle in a scope like that that is not straight.

I think in the near future scopes are going to be more like digital cameras and camcorders, so who knows what they will be capable of at that point.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 10:33
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IS the weight of the scope counted in the weight of the gun?  Then you have the factor of who wants to tool up for that limited a market?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 11:17
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I'd like to see a complete redesign entirely from the ground up - a scope that is carried in a case then attached to the rifle at the range as it is too big (round) to fit in the rifle's case. It attaches with an integral quick connect sort of deal. It's big yet not long, like a refractor telescope. Using refraction it can zoom from 10-100x. With a 300mm objective lens it would be bright at most settings. It comes with interchangeable reticules to suit different types of shooting.  What I have in mind resembles a telescope more than a hunting scope.

But it's purpose resembles telescopic observation more than it does hunting.

I do "pro" photography as one of my hobbies, pro cameras have detachable lenses ranging from small to giant. While it is ridiculed to have a giant scope in this hobby (shooting) it is awe inspiring to photographers when they see the giant lenses. It's kind of funny how each hobby has a different social stigma. It's also funny how Nikon is in both. I have Nikon lenses for my camera :)

Here is a telescopic Nikon lens :





With it I was able to zoom in very close on my daughter at one of her violin rehearsals :



This is how far away I actually was :



Here is a picture that shows a different lens on the same camera, the lenses are detachable. (Also the pocket camera for wide panoramic shots)



But had there been a social stigma against large camera lenses maybe that big lens never would have been invented and I would have never been able to get that close up artistic photo.

The detachable lens system ensures the camera can "transform" to suit the different jobs. I like the idea of a removable reticle for the benchrest scope, in a module that snaps in and out of the scope to suit different enviroments, maybe a super thin reticle for one day, maybe a mildot for the next day, maybe a thick german post reticle for low light shooting. Different calibers and loads can have different reticles. Ect. The manufacturer could make custom reticles and that would earn money.

I think it's time for a purpose built benchrest scope that does not resemble a hunting scope or use leftover parts from the production of hunting scopes.

That's my idea and I have pitched it to a Chinese scope manufacturer, but he didn't like my idea :( They like to copy more than they like to innovate.

Cheers,
Craig

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 11:23
spystyle View Drop Down
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Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

IS the weight of the scope counted in the weight of the gun?  Then you have the factor of who wants to tool up for that limited a market?


I don't think scopes have much weight, they are hollow. The lenses can be made from plastic. But who cares about weight on a bench?

As for "limited market" - how many people shoot paper from a bench? I bet there is a larger market than anyone imagines. Any person belonging to a shooting club with benches could use one of these. Then just use a different scope for hunting (via quick detachable mounts).

Think modular :)

Cheers,
Craig


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 13:33
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Most match games have very strict rules on weight.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 14:08
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I see! I have never been in a match.

Still, I suspect a hollow telescope made from Aluminum could be very lightweight.

Cheers,
Craig
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 15:26
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The tube will be lightweight, but the internals, especially if you want to have a mirror set-up like you see in spotting scopes, won't be.  Really, your market is going to be limited to people who shoot railguns, like to one you psted in your original post.  There aren't that many out there.  The rest of us are pretty content with the existing glass.  Also, modular can be good, but modular and repeatable are almost mutually exclusive and repeatability is paramount to shooting.  The modular reticle idea would mean opening the scope internals every time you want to switch, exposing them to all kinds of bad stuff.  There's a reason any good scope is built air-tight and nitrogen filled.  Maybe an electronic reticle system would work, like the interchangable reticles used in red-dot sights, but actually removing something from the scope and putting it back on is never a good idea.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 16:05
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Electronic reticle, now that is a good idea !!! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 16:05
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So what is the weight limit for matches ?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 16:07
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A rifle scope has a lot more parts than a camera lens. Think of a camera shift lense on more than one axis.   It is also expected to be sealed.  Reticle changes happen at the factory.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2008 at 17:48
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unlimited class and rail guns don't use cheek rest, in most cases the shooter sits in a chair and look through a scope that may several feet from the bore line.
camera lenses and cameras aren't used- the axis deviation from center line to off center in the film line has too much tolerances. as does the bayonet lock ups on the lens system.
cats aren 't used because high powered scopes (around 45x) have very low depth of field, and a cat would be worse. also the reason why large exit pupil isn't needed, single most important issue is having no movement in the lens elevation/windage group,-- so glue that thing and used external micrometer adjustment.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 21:24
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I think the short answer is also the best one: A 300mm objective scope would be too expensive for 99.9% of shooters to afford and the size/weight would make it unmanageable.

Have you thought about where you might find rings for it?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 21:27
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Originally posted by doubs43 doubs43 wrote:

Have you thought about where you might find rings for it?


Roll%20on%20Floor%20LaughingThose would be some big'ol rings
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2008 at 00:00
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the PPC (Pindall Palm cartridge group ) probably cost the the two doctors that developed around $50,000 by the time they developed it, I don't think a scope would stop them.
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