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Why doesnt Zeiss step up to the plate in the USA?

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Zeiss rifle scopes are some of the finest made in the world. We all know the conquest has caught on and put a huge dent in the mid-priced scope market. I would venture to say the conquest is what caused the vari-x III to VX-III "upgrade" and the VX-III to VX-3 upgrade.
So why doesnt zeiss market the diavari/victory series scopes worth a darn here?
THey are the gold standard in most of europe.

I went into a Bass Pro a couple of weeks ago, he had seen my diavari and wanted to look at it and swaro z6's. Well bass Pro doesnt carry top of the line zeiss, only conquests. I couldnt understand why. Its like zeiss just concedes defeat to swarovski in the uSA.

Zeiss also doesnt advertise or market themselves near as well as swarovski. No TV shows are sponsored by zeiss, I dont see zeiss victory scopes ads in magazines, just conquests. Its almost like they dont expect to sell the 30mm front focal plane scopes here so they dont even mention them. I have never been to a cabelas, do they stock them?
Even Bass Pro online doesnt stock the victory scopes?

WHat do you guys think? Seems to me like zeiss doesnt want to market the victory series here or maybe the profit margin is so high on the conquest they would rather sell those???
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 09:32
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They cost an arm and a leg.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 09:41
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zeiss scopes are a very small part of zeiss optical, and I'm sure at the bottom of the list of important stuff. Some scope makers only sell scopes, (some sell flashllights also). I think Euro hunters use one scope fits all, in the usa the hunter/shooter wants a different scope on every gun. The choices in zeiss diavari is limited, also the conquest is an old design and cheaper to make, while the glass is ok, their saddle and turret assembly doesn't even touch some of the current usa stuff. The new zeiss Rapid Z reticles have helped put some life in an old line, but it still remains just that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 10:35
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It's cheaper for Zeiss to sell the Conquest line here in the USA.You do find Zeiss Victory scopes being sold here in the states.Here in the northeast Zeiss has dealers who do stock the high end Zeiss line.Leupold did take a beating from the Conquest,4200,SII,Monarch brand scopes which were cheaper and better than the VXIII.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 10:54
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The places I have seen Diavaris have not moved them very much.  Price becomes prohibitive for most.  Especially when the Kahles and Swaros on demo and clearance have been on the market for a while.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 11:06
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

They cost an arm and a leg.  
and a swaro Z6 doesnt? i am talking high end scope market here. why wouldnt a place as big as bass pro carry them?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 11:08
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Originally posted by brodeur272 brodeur272 wrote:

The places I have seen Diavaris have not moved them very much.  Price becomes prohibitive for most.  Especially when the Kahles and Swaros on demo and clearance have been on the market for a while.
thats my point they dont move because they dont sponsor every hunting show and run ads in every magazine touting that line of scopes. they mar advertise binos or a rangefinder but not the diavari scope. yet swaro sells tons of z6's and ph's at the same cost level. does zeiss not want a pice of that pie here? people are buying scopes ofr those prices but you cant even go to a store to see a diavari if you wanted to buy one at most places because they arent there
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 11:08
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Originally posted by 308WIN 308WIN wrote:

Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

They cost an arm and a leg.  
and a swaro Z6 doesnt? i am talking high end scope market here. why wouldnt a place as big as bass pro carry them?

because they could easily sell 100 vx-2's in a week where they might sell 10 z6's in a month or even a year.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 12:03
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on the zeiss web-- they are making some of the diavaris in sfp and the lower illuminated dot comes in sfp for the dot and ffp for the cross hair, it is these types of changes that will mark interest in zeiss scopes, not trade fairs.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 13:22
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I have never seen the 4200 at a Bass pro shop either. Only 3200 and under. Why sell one quality scope when they can sell several lower priced scopes and keep you comming back because you are not satisfied. $$$$$
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 13:28
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For a long time Zeiss was fairly clueless about marketing anything except binoculars in the U.S., and they weren't even great at that. Their "marketing" campaign mostly consisted of having a few gun writers over the Germany every  few years, to tour the factories and tell them how stupid Americans were for not buying Zeiss scopes.
 
While this was going on Zeiss scopes weren't truly waterproof, mostly had short eye relief, and weren't all that tough. Those features weren't really needed in Germany, so they assumed they weren't needed in America either.
 
In the meantime Swarovski was trying hard to understand the American market, and making some scopes according to what Americans wanted. They also ran some smart ad campaigns, which pretty much convinced the average American hunter that Swarovski made the best scopes in the world.
 
Eventually Zeiss realized what was happening, and brought out the Conquests specifically for the American market. But they never have advertised or promoted like Swarovski has, and hence may never catch up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 13:37
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Originally posted by 308WIN 308WIN wrote:

Zeiss rifle scopes are some of the finest made in the world. We all know the conquest has caught on and put a huge dent in the mid-priced scope market. I would venture to say the conquest is what caused the vari-x III to VX-III "upgrade" and the VX-III to VX-3 upgrade.
So why doesnt zeiss market the diavari/victory series scopes worth a darn here?
THey are the gold standard in most of europe.

I went into a Bass Pro a couple of weeks ago, he had seen my diavari and wanted to look at it and swaro z6's. Well bass Pro doesnt carry top of the line zeiss, only conquests. I couldnt understand why. Its like zeiss just concedes defeat to swarovski in the uSA.

Zeiss also doesnt advertise or market themselves near as well as swarovski. No TV shows are sponsored by zeiss, I dont see zeiss victory scopes ads in magazines, just conquests. Its almost like they dont expect to sell the 30mm front focal plane scopes here so they dont even mention them. I have never been to a cabelas, do they stock them?
Even Bass Pro online doesnt stock the victory scopes?

WHat do you guys think? Seems to me like zeiss doesnt want to market the victory series here or maybe the profit margin is so high on the conquest they would rather sell those???



uhh...yeah they do. I just saw an advertisement for the Zeiss Victory scope the other day in one of my hunting magazines. Bxxx Pxx's not really the best gauge for hunting equipment IMHO. Cxxxxx's carries the Victory scopes and caters more toward hunting than B.P.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 13:38
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Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

For a long time Zeiss was fairly clueless about marketing anything except binoculars in the U.S., and they weren't even great at that. Their "marketing" campaign mostly consisted of having a few gun writers over the Germany every  few years, to tour the factories and tell them how stupid Americans were for not buying Zeiss scopes.
 
While this was going on Zeiss scopes weren't truly waterproof, mostly had short eye relief, and weren't all that tough. Those features weren't really needed in Germany, so they assumed they weren't needed in America either.
 
In the meantime Swarovski was trying hard to understand the American market, and making some scopes according to what Americans wanted. They also ran some smart ad campaigns, which pretty much convinced the average American hunter that Swarovski made the best scopes in the world.
 
Eventually Zeiss realized what was happening, and brought out the Conquests specifically for the American market. But they never have advertised or promoted like Swarovski has, and hence may never catch up.


hmmm...sounds more like Leupold to me.  Wink






Edited by mike650 - March/24/2009 at 13:45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 13:44
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Funny I was thinking the same as well. Nobody markets old technology in a new wrapper better than Leupold.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 14:28
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Sure you saw an ad but I see ads for swaro in every magazine & every tv. Show. I was hunting with a guy who wants a swaro" because they r the best". Best @ what I asked? Sure they r great but he could get a victory for 400 cheaper & still wanted a swaro because of the power of advertising.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 14:39
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Originally posted by 308WIN 308WIN wrote:

Sure you saw an ad but I see ads for swaro in every magazine & every tv. Show. I was hunting with a guy who wants a swaro" because they r the best". Best @ what I asked? Sure they r great but he could get a victory for 400 cheaper & still wanted a swaro because of the power of advertising.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 14:42
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As the use of the scope specializes and the price goes up the available purchasers become more demanding, but not from the power of advertising, but from need, this is seen almost daily from professional photographers, and somewhat recently in the popularity of tactical type scopes. Finishing your analogy he could a leo for $1000 less and still made the shot.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 14:52
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Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

For a long time Zeiss was fairly clueless about marketing anything except binoculars in the U.S., and they weren't even great at that. Their "marketing" campaign mostly consisted of having a few gun writers over the Germany every  few years, to tour the factories and tell them how stupid Americans were for not buying Zeiss scopes.
 
While this was going on Zeiss scopes weren't truly waterproof, mostly had short eye relief, and weren't all that tough. Those features weren't really needed in Germany, so they assumed they weren't needed in America either.
 
In the meantime Swarovski was trying hard to understand the American market, and making some scopes according to what Americans wanted. They also ran some smart ad campaigns, which pretty much convinced the average American hunter that Swarovski made the best scopes in the world.
 
Eventually Zeiss realized what was happening, and brought out the Conquests specifically for the American market. But they never have advertised or promoted like Swarovski has, and hence may never catch up.


I would agree with the marketing assertion, I do not think Zeiss has any catching up to do on quality of scope or glass.

As has been stated, Zeiss can sell many, many Conquests and make more money than selling a few Victories - and that they have done well. The enthusiast market tends to self-advertise pretty well, ask anyone who owns a McMillan stock or USO/S&B/Premier scope.


I don't spend much time paying attention to marketing, it is, by another name, lying for a living.   that said, I am a fan of Zeiss and Swarovski, both great scopes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 14:58
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My point was really this;
A certain segment of the population will spens lots of money because of brand recognition & availibilty. Therefore, if I was director of sales for zeiss, I would think that most people who would buy a swaro could be a victory buyer as well. What aren't we doing to geT the brand out there to the consumer? Weare missing out on targeting a specific customer base.
I think swaro makes excellent products but I think they also enjoy zeiss's weak attempts @ pushing the high dollar stuff in an agressive manner.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 15:18
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I didn't say anything about Zeiss's optics. All I was talking about was their marketing strategy in the U.S., which was essentially almost non-existent before the Conquest.

You can think what you want about marketing, but the best product in the world won't sell if nobody knows about it, or if very few people can buy it. The best marketing makes people aware of products without lying.

Yes, some marketing is lying. Advertisments often contain lies. One of the most blatant lies in all of optics marketing occurred was Swarovski's ad campaign about how much more light was allowed through 30mm scopes versus 1" scopes. This was so successful that lots of people still believe this is a basic optical principle. But it also got a lot of people to look through Swarovski scopes.

Getting a booth at the SHOT Show is marketing. Just about every optics company on earth that wants to sell optics does this. Is this lying? No, it's just making the world aware of products.

It would be really stupid for Zeiss just to make scopes and binoculars and stack them in warehouses, waiting for somebody to become aware of them and buy them. "Marketing" is, above all, figuring out first how to make people aware of your product. Then it is about creating more demand.
 
Unfortuneately for Zeiss, for many years their American marketing strategy was pretty much just making stuff and hoping Americans would buy it. That changed in the late 1990's. I don't think this was ignorance as much as arrogance. They had some brand recognition here, but relatively poor distribution, which meant that only people who already wanted a Zeiss product would see one. And eventually somebody else (Swarovski) created even more brand recognition. Zeiss assumed that the magic of their own name would beat out the upstart Austrians, but it didn't.
 
Yeah, the best way to compare products is to try both of them. Unfortunately, not everybody is going to buy both a top-line Zeiss and Swarovski scope and try them out, even with Cabela's return policy. The same applies to all products. Very few people are going to buy a Ford and a Toyota and drive them on alternate days to see which one is the better pickup.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 15:19
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Also a lot of consumers see "swarfski" & think I gotta get summa that "german" stuff. They don't know why, but their buddy told em it was the best stuff. I agree with JB on the "german" stubborness to change their superior ways. I work against germans in my field & they reduse to do it different. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 16:54
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My bother works for a German-Swiss company. They see the world a lot differant than Americans.  They assume that thier way is the best and everybody else should adapt to thier way of doing things.  Rather than the other way around which is closer to the American way of thinking.
 
Rember the store is not there to sell the best.  They are there to sell things that make it money. It is the law of compounded interest.  You only make money on the things that move. If you have a floor plan (business inventory loan) you loose money on things that don't move.  You make money on things that turn over faster than those who have larger margins.  Basic formula is Investment plus Mark up times rate of Turn over.  If it does not turn over you do not make money.   I+M^T=  Profit Turn over is an exponet. 
 
Now, if you take 10 thousand dollars and want to double it...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 17:12
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One thing I forgot to point out in my previous post about marketing is that Opticstalk.com is "marketing." Most websites are.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 17:24
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Point taken.

For clarification, I wasn't trying to start a fight.

I see a profound difference between this:
http://www.countersniperoptics.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=57&idp=0&his=0&cart_id=5017700.6136


And this:
http://www.zeiss.com/C1256BCF0020BE5F/Contents-Frame/E34E4125AA548D6685256BCF0061320D

Marketing is, in my opinion, a way of biasing or creating data; and there is as much misrepresentation in marketing  - probably more - as their is accurate representation.


Personally, I don't count it as a bad thing that Zeiss doesn't market more.  I would agree it is unfortunate that the group most susceptible to marketing campaigns is as poorly informed as they are (many still "know" that every leupold is made in the USA and says so on the box)but, with the internet what it is today, it is a lack of effrot to know that leads people to buy a CounterSniper scope and not something of quality.  That, and the cool bright wite lettering on the ocular bell.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 17:28
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I actually work for one of the largest German companies in the world and have for the past 20+ years. Yes, they do think differently. In Europe, their the leader in many fields so what they offer is basically what you get, period. Almost like strong arming. Here in the states, we have so many choices that their forced to make modifications/adjustments (which hits their bottom line) to remain competitive. Because of this they consider Americans as spoiled. They don't do a whole lot of advertising because their the “main player” back home and probably feel they don’t have to. The products produced are excellent  but costly. The bottom line is the money, then the customer.

Maybe that's the attitude of Zeiss if one feels that they don't advertise their product enough here in the USA; not sure why someone would cry “foul” if they don’t. As for Swaro, I feel their smart and they deliver too. If the company I work for had the same strategy plan I feel we would not have lost so much ground as of late here in the states.



Edited by mike650 - March/25/2009 at 22:34
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