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why buy expensive rings?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2007 at 00:19
rooshooter View Drop Down
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can someone please tell me in plain and simple terms what benefits i would get from buying expensive rings such as badger over relatively inexpensive rings such as b-square.

if it helps i plan to lap the rings i buy.
my rig is a 223
it won't be getting harsh treatment

thanks all in advance

p.s. i realise this may be self explanatory to most, but i am relatively new to the game, and from what i can understand by reading the posts on this forum, as long as the rings clamp securely and evenly[hence the lapping] there shouln't be any problems correct??

in saying that lets assume that the screw holes in the action are concentric, the mounts are true to the bore, the rings are true to the bore and i wont be needing much upward adjustment.

if i'm totally off the mark please let me know!

Edited by rooshooter
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2007 at 15:45
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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badge--what badge I don't need no stinkin badge-----  not a slam against badger as they make fine products, it just that they are very special purpose and for that reason someone will always pay the extra. after all 800% over engineered is always nice to distract that the weakest link is the four screws that holds everything to the receiver, and the alignment of the base
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2007 at 17:26
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

badge--what badge I don't need no stinkin badge-----  not a slam against badger as they make fine products, it just that they are very special purpose and for that reason someone will always pay the extra. after all 800% over engineered is always nice to distract that the weakest link is the four screws that holds everything to the receiver, and the alignment of the base

 

  This is sort of true unless you are mounting them on a rifle with the base integral to the receiver such as many of the heavy long-range rigs, specialized target rifles and all the AR-10 and  AR-15 flattop platforms...

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2007 at 21:29
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the use of a "heavy duty" set of rings makes some sense when the scope is extremely large and heavy and tends to "tip" the gun over but not necersaary and not needed at all in ar10 or 15 whichby using properly placed risers (don't have on the 3 ar 15 or 2 ar 10 , trg, or 6.5) eliminates the high cheek weld problem.  Don't have any on my surgeon, which has the base as part of the receiver. truely specialized target rigs don't even use rings as we think of them, they are usually solid square pieces of Al. with 1 cap end tension bolt(check out 6mmbr.com if you want to see them) which are made especially for that gun at the time of assembly. Not needed on a heavy  used Conetrol, sleek, trim and sexy for years on a  7lb. 375  before the "big tactical ring" fad. recoil didn't bother them. hey if you want em, get em, its your money, but don't bullsh*t me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2007 at 05:38
rooshooter View Drop Down
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thanks for the replies.

to simplify the equation: will cheap rings once lapped do the job they are there for without compromising accuracy[i've heard it said that cheap mounts and rings or those not mounted correctly will stop you geeting the most out of your scope]

once again i won't be needing to adjust the scope for distance once zeroed in[assuming nothing in the mounting/ring equation is so skewed it can't be zeroed without adjustable mounts/rings]
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2007 at 09:02
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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the common complaint against cheap rings are the are not made to correct specs.  If they are, the guns not going to know the difference. even expensive stuff mismounted or out of spec will do the same thing. a very good example of this are ruger rings which is the progener or beginner for rings mounted directly to the receiver. great idea but most ruger rings fit into the cheap ring catagory. another approach to this problem is the new T/C which has the bases on the receiver, eliminating some of the tolerance stackup when using 2 component devices. If your an experimenter and curious try the lap on a less expensive set and let us know. as a side note there are mid priced sets that are really good stuff, tps, warne, leopold just to name a few.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2007 at 10:13
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thanks dale.

just curious though. what do you mean by mismounted or out of spec? are you referring to rings that aren't lapped and are therefore more than likely stressing the scope and possibly causing compromise of the internal movement? too tight screws perhaps?

i have the basic weaver two piece base and weaver hinge mounts. probably the cheapest out there. came with the gun. it seems to me there is very little i can do aside from lapping the rings to alter the setup. the mounts screw down. the ring base slots in and screws down. the top hooks on and screws down. admittedly rather difficult to torque evenly and keep the crosshair where you want it, but at the end of the day the crosshairs are straight, the scope is on the gun rather securely, and it shoots where i want. what else do you need?

i have lapped the bottom half of the rings, but what is that going to do for me that hasn't been done already?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2007 at 12:49
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the orginal weavers are really amazing for what they are. the tilting has always been a complint. If you could the quad locks are quite a bit better and only a few bucks more.

yes to your question

say you got a smith to bring all the rings, mounts and receiver into correct specs and the rings/mounts your started with were the same material and size as the high dollar set. by the time you paid the hourly rate you would have the same amt. of money in cheap ones as buying the high dollar ones. would the high dollar ones still be better, n0. The gun builders are going to choose the high dollar set to put on your gun to avoid the labor of making a mediocre group work. they are betting that unless your one hell of a handloader you'll never be able to see the difference in the rifle capabilites.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2007 at 09:49
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Originally posted by rooshooter rooshooter wrote:

can someone please tell me in plain and simple terms what benefits i would get from buying expensive rings such as badger over relatively inexpensive rings such as b-square.

if it helps i plan to lap the rings i buy.
my rig is a 223
it won't be getting harsh treatment.

thanks all in advance

p.s. i realise this may be self explanatory to most, but i am relatively new to the game, and from what i can understand by reading the posts on this forum, as long as the rings clamp securely and evenly[hence the lapping] there shouln't be any problems correct??

in saying that lets assume that the screw holes in the action are concentric, the mounts are true to the bore, the rings are true to the bore and i wont be needing much upward adjustment.

if i'm totally off the mark please let me know!

 

 Then you do not need heavy duty  tactical rings.

 

Dale Clifford -I have to take friendly exception to your implications that anyone advocating such rings is trying to "bullsh*t" you. The fact is that heavy-duty rings were designed to survive rough handling, in harsh conditions, better than anything else available.  The fact that they will hold zero under abusive handling that will simply destroy a set of ordinary "Joe Sportsman" rings is simply indisputable. Does rooshooter need them? I think we all  agree that he does not,especially as obvious as it is that he is trying to save some money.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2007 at 09:55
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Originally posted by rooshooter rooshooter wrote:

can someone please tell me in plain and simple terms what benefits i would get from buying expensive rings such as badger over relatively inexpensive rings such as b-square.

if it helps i plan to lap the rings i buy.
my rig is a 223
it won't be getting harsh treatment

thanks all in advance

p.s. i realise this may be self explanatory to most, but i am relatively new to the game, and from what i can understand by reading the posts on this forum, as long as the rings clamp securely and evenly[hence the lapping] there shouln't be any problems correct??

in saying that lets assume that the screw holes in the action are concentric, the mounts are true to the bore, the rings are true to the bore and i wont be needing much upward adjustment.

if i'm totally off the mark please let me know!

 

 Incidently, that is a lot to assume, but I wish you luck nontheless...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2007 at 10:42
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It amazes me how law enforcement and military think they are harder on stuff than a horse and moutain sides
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2007 at 15:35
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

It amazes me how law enforcement and military think they are harder on stuff than a horse and moutain sides

 

 Not me. Guys like you and me who ride horses up and down mountainsides tend to own our personal gear, and as a result tend to take care to protect it as much as possible. Quite often G.I. Joe is issued his equipment and thus has no personal or sentimental attachment to it.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/2007 at 22:20
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ronk quoted me saying

"in saying that lets assume that the screw holes in the action are concentric, the mounts are true to the bore, the rings are true to the bore and i wont be needing much upward adjustment.

if i'm totally off the mark please let me know!

Incidently, that is a lot to assume, but I wish you luck nontheless...

yes that is a lot to assume and having lapped my rings, having found the mechanical centre of my scope and then mounting my scope i did indeed find that considerable adjustment needed to be made to boresight the rifle. therefore something in my ring/mount/receiver equation is out.

that must also mean that since the reticle needed to be moved to align with the bore, the two aren't perfectly aligned on the vertical axis and therefore i am practically only zeroed in at the range of the object that i boresighted. is that correct?

if so does that mean i need rings and or mounts that can both be adjusted independenly of one another, to align the vertical axis of the scope with the centre of the bore in parrallel?[ i am unaware whether thay exist...though it's probably safe to assume they do!]
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/09/2007 at 10:01
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the popularity ok dovetail turn ins was due to the windage adjustment in the base to compensate for slight amount of error in non concentric alignment between receiver and bore. (to say nothing about lack of moa in the scope for a moment). of course this only going to work for small errors and if the gun is set a 200 yds, the inch to left at 100 and 2" to the right at 300 would never be noticed. thus the cottage industry of "tuned" rifle actions.

large displacements in the erector of the scope do not necessarily mean bore misalignment-- because the erector is moved parallel to the aligment process rather than pivoted, which would cause the optical picture to have more and uncorrected off axis projection on the last lens.

yes I think lynx in your country has front and rear ajustables possibly under the name of tasco world class.

before the popularity and availability of scopes having large amount of moa built internally this was the method of correction-- it is still used in some really high end stuff, USO 58 mm and Unertl long range stuff.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/09/2007 at 14:48
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Originally posted by rooshooter rooshooter wrote:

ronk quoted me saying

"in saying that lets assume that the screw holes in the action are concentric, the mounts are true to the bore, the rings are true to the bore and i wont be needing much upward adjustment.

if i'm totally off the mark please let me know!

Incidently, that is a lot to assume, but I wish you luck nontheless...

yes that is a lot to assume and having lapped my rings, having found the mechanical centre of my scope and then mounting my scope i did indeed find that considerable adjustment needed to be made to boresight the rifle. therefore something in my ring/mount/receiver equation is out.

that must also mean that since the reticle needed to be moved to align with the bore, the two aren't perfectly aligned on the vertical axis and therefore i am practically only zeroed in at the range of the object that i boresighted. is that correct?

if so does that mean i need rings and or mounts that can both be adjusted independenly of one another, to align the vertical axis of the scope with the centre of the bore in parrallel?[ i am unaware whether thay exist...though it's probably safe to assume they do!]

 

 rooshooter, I'm still not real sure if you have vertical or horizontal misalignment problems, or both, but you've done well to find the mechanical center of your scope as a starting point. Since you already are this far, I would say to go ahead and snug the scope down into whatever rings you have and see if you can get zeroed up without using up all your W&E adjustments. If you can, then don't worry too much about it being a bit off mechanical center.  If you are not happy with that, then get a set of  Burris Signature rings compatable to your current base.  Also purchase a complete set of eccentric ring inserts to use with them. These take a bit of patient study to figure out but they are by far the best way for a kitchen table gunsmith to correct serious alignment problems. They can correct any axial error, horizontal, vertical or both at the same time; and they clamp securely without leaving ring marks.  You will have to purchase them seperately. The rings come with a set of concentric inserts for use in a perfect world.  We already know that you will have to throw away at least one set of them , maybe both, and replace them with eccentrics in one or both rings, depending on the amount of correction you need. The eccentric half- bushings must be installed in matched pairs, one pair of halves per ring. They are available in.005", 010" and .020" offsets, plus the .000" ones that come with the rings. What is great about them is you can use any combination of them to correct virtually any reasonable amount in any direction.  Kind of hard to explain but they make more sense when you see them and how they fit into the rings. They also come with very good instructions. I have come to rely on them for several years now and they always solve mounting problems, such as yours, to great satisfaction. Be aware that many dealers really do not understand the system ,and some who carry Burris scopes and rings and bases do not even carry the insert sets. I'm not sure about SWFA, check them out, but Brownells always used to carry them...

 The Signature rings are  available in Leupold standard and dual dovetail styles and in the Weaver cross-slot style which Burris calls ZEE Rings, which fit Weaver brand bases.

 

Edited to add:

  I checked SWFA's store page under rings and bases, and confirmed that they do carry the inserts including a three-offset set for about 13 bucks. You may now ignore my plug for Brownell's. (Sorry about that, Chris! )

 

 



Edited by RONK
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2007 at 09:27
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[QUOTE=Dale Clifford]

the popularity ok dovetail turn ins was due to the windage adjustment in the base to compensate for slight amount of error in non concentric alignment between receiver and bore.

you say 'slight' amount of error. i can boresight myn at 100-is that 'slight'?

also by the nature of dovetail turn ins in that only the back is adjustable and the front pivots, this assumes that the front receiver screw holes are tapped perfectly over the bore. is that correct?

my dilemma is i have mounts and rings that aren't adjustable. after lapping the rings i have and mounting the scope[with the reticle at its mechanical centre] the reticle was off a bit. i tweeked the dials and before long[i cant remember exactly how many moa either way it took] i was at boresight zero. back to your statement about 'slight error'. should i even worry about getting mounts and rings that are going to allow me to get the scope concentric and parrallel to the bore without using the scope's internal adjustments? are the adjustments that i've made to get on zero, going to lead to gross error at 200 say? i need to hit targets[roo heads] at 200 and beyond.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2007 at 09:35
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large displacements in the erector of the scope do not necessarily mean bore misalignment-- because the erector is moved parallel to the aligment process rather than pivoted, which would cause the optical picture to have more and uncorrected off axis projection on the last lens.



sorry dale. please explain?[ p.s. i haven't yet worked out how to post quotes in a box, then talk some, then talk again???
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2007 at 09:41
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. Since you already are this far, I would say to go ahead and snug the scope down into whatever rings you have and see if you can get zeroed up without using up all your W&E adjustments. If you can, then don't worry too much about it being a bit off mechanical center. 

ronk i have fitted the scope and i did get it zeroed more or less[boresighted at 100],so i'm not so concerned about the scope being off mechanical centre, rather that the scope isn't centred and parrallel over the bore! this will lead to error down the track will it not??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/10/2007 at 11:46
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sorry dale. please explain?[ p.s. i haven't yet worked out how to post quotes in a box, then talk some, then talk again???
me either

yes back only except with the lynx which allows both.

 

when you are pistol shooting the rear and front sight are moved as a unit (call wobble area) as opposed to pivoting the wrist. which cause a larger radial displacement in the shot group -- same thing different players.

 

the error in what amounts to the same thing as a "bent" barrel (which can occur right out of the receiver as well as on the end) causes the same type of POI problems you are asking about. and the only way to find out is shoot some groups as 8shot did. (past postings check out- very informative).

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