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Why arent 8x50 bino’s more popular?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/20/2007 at 16:13
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Seem to be a great combo but not popular? size and weight I assume?

Edited by SAKO75
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/20/2007 at 16:32
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It is over ruled by the 7x50  which is about the same size and weight and has better exit pupil. It is also over ruled by the 8x42 which has the same power and is lighter even though it does not have as good of an exit pupil. Yes, In the long run it is pretty much over ruled by similar binoculars that are smaller and lighter or have better exit pupil. Hope this helps!

Edited by Chris Farris 2
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/21/2007 at 11:10
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i disagree. the 7x50 and 8x50 are marginally different in exit pupil and higher mag always does better in lowlight provided a large exit pupil. my eyes may not even dilate to 7mm anymore...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/21/2007 at 11:44
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Leica, Steiner, Swarovski, Zeiss all have 8x50mm binoculars, if you're interested.

 

Minox offers 8.5x52mm.

 

Vortex has 8.5x50mm.

 

Pretty good for starters.



Edited by Bird Watcher
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 00:04
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Originally posted by SAKO75 SAKO75 wrote:

i disagree. the 7x50 and 8x50 are marginally different in exit pupil and higher mag always does better in lowlight provided a large exit pupil. my eyes may not even dilate to 7mm anymore...

The perfect objective size on a 7 power to get the exit pupil to 7mm is a 49mm obj. and, on an 8 power it would have to have 56mm obj to be as bright as the 7. There for the 6.2mm exit pupil of the 8x50 is not as bright as the 7.1mm exit pupil on the 7x50. This is assuming your eye dilates to 7mm which is what the human eye can dilate to depending on your age. The power has nothing to do with it being brighter when comparing similar size objectives. It is actually the bigger objective size on the same power does better in lowlight due to the better exit pupil.



Edited by Chris Farris 2
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 04:36
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so a 4x28 or a 7x42 would be brighter than a 10x56... maybe on paper

yes magnification does help, ever heard of twilight factor?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 09:02
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Twilight factor is just bollocks, means really nothing.

According to the Twilight factor a 6,5-20x50 Should have more light on the ocular end than a 8x56 and it's actually the contrary.

But yes magnification help to a certain extent and then becoms a problem instead.

A 7x50 is to be prefered to 10x56 on a wild boar in the night on 30 yards distance.

 

Regards Technika

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 09:04
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depending on the age...5.6mm exit pupil is nothing to sneeze at


http://www.astronomics.com/main/definition.asp/catalog_name/ Astronomics/category_name/EU2KXDVQ4U789JB4AS8CUHDJV2/Page/1
Twilight Factor
A number used to compare the effectiveness of binoculars or spotting scopes used in low light. The twilight factor is found by multiplying the size of the objective lens (in mm) by the magnification and then finding the square root of that result. The larger the twilight factor, the more detail you can see in low light. A twilight factor of 17 or better if usually required for reasonable low light use.


Edited by SAKO75
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 10:53
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Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

Twilight factor is just bollocks, means really nothing.

According to the Twilight factor a 6,5-20x50 Should have more light on the ocular end than a 8x56 and it's actually the contrary.

But yes magnification help to a certain extent and then becoms a problem instead.

A 7x50 is to be prefered to 10x56 on a wild boar in the night on 30 yards distance.

 

Regards Technika

 

 

Im with technika on this one.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 10:56
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Originally posted by SAKO75 SAKO75 wrote:

depending on the age...5.6mm exit pupil is nothing to sneeze at


http://www.astronomics.com/main/definition.asp/catalog_name/ Astronomics/category_name/EU2KXDVQ4U789JB4AS8CUHDJV2/Page/1
Twilight Factor
A number used to compare the effectiveness of binoculars or spotting scopes used in low light. The twilight factor is found by multiplying the size of the objective lens (in mm) by the magnification and then finding the square root of that result. The larger the twilight factor, the more detail you can see in low light. A twilight factor of 17 or better if usually required for reasonable low light use.

To me detail doesn't matter when you don't have enough exit pupil or light transmission for it to be bright enough to see anything in the first place. Maybe it is the age difference between us because I can tell the difference with my eyes between a 6.1 and a 7 exit pupil. Your eyes may not dialate enough for you to tell a difference but I can. Yes higher power does give you more detail but, it is irrelevant in helping light transmission. When comparing two similar size obj the larger power actually hurts the light transmission.



Edited by Chris Farris 2
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 11:08
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Originally posted by Chris Farris 2 Chris Farris 2 wrote:

Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

Twilight factor is just bollocks, means really nothing.

According to the Twilight factor a 6,5-20x50 Should have more light on the ocular end than a 8x56 and it's actually the contrary.

But yes magnification help to a certain extent and then becoms a problem instead.

A 7x50 is to be prefered to 10x56 on a wild boar in the night on 30 yards distance.

 

Regards Technika

 

 

Im with technika on this one.

 

My eyes support this, too

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 11:48
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Sako75,

 

If your mind was "already made up" before you posted your thread, why bother?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 15:16
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Sako

 

Please compare a high magnified scope with 50-56mm objective to a 8X.

You will fairly soon realize that you cannot see anything in the high magnified scope unless it's very good light outside.

Instead of arguing, try it.

 

Within optics people there is never meantioned the twilight factor as everyone knows from their own experince that it's just nonsence.

 

Regards TEchnika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 20:20
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funny, my mind made up?

i do not agree that I would see substantially better if any with a 7x50 in lowlight compared to an 8x50

nor do i believe i would see better with a 2x14, 4x28, or 6x42 when compared to a 10x56

for some strange reason, I dont see any 4x28 night scopes....Leica doesnt even make a 8x56 or 7x50 bino, they felt the 7x42 and 8x50 covered it well enough, I guess they need to learn from this forum///

my questions was about the 8x50 to which someone replied it served little purpose, go with a 7x50 instead...well thats easy enough but I was looking for user feedback and/or direct comparisons, not an exit pupil thesis. I am very aware of the exit pupil and its importance in low light.

I am also aware that a bright bino that isnt magnified enough other than to tell their is "something" out there isnt useful. a 3x21 bino would be bright sure but who would want it? i also dont see any 10x70 binos for those lowlight fanatics... It seems that quality glass/coatings/design with a 50mm or 56mm obj tend to treat people right for the most part...
if u guys are telling me u can spot game with a 7x50 that u cant with an 8x50 at night, my hats off to u

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 20:21
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Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

Sako

 

Please compare a high magnified scope with 50-56mm objective to a 8X.

You will fairly soon realize that you cannot see anything in the high magnified scope unless it's very good light outside.

Instead of arguing, try it.

 

Within optics people there is never meantioned the twilight factor as everyone knows from their own experince that it's just nonsence.

 

Regards TEchnika



yep i agree that a 15 power with  50 MM OBJECTIVE might not be as bright as an 8x with a 50... but comparing a 7x to 8x and both with 50mm objective? I dont think 6.1 exit pupil is anything ot sneeze at?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 20:36
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Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

Twilight factor is just bollocks, means really nothing.

According to the Twilight factor a 6,5-20x50 Should have more light on the ocular end than a 8x56 and it's actually the contrary.

But yes magnification help to a certain extent and then becoms a problem instead.

A 7x50 is to be prefered to 10x56 on a wild boar in the night on 30 yards distance.

 

Regards Technika

 

 


what about hunting deer @ 300 yards over a powerline or clearcut?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 21:10
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Originally posted by SAKO75 SAKO75 wrote:

funny, my mind made up?

i do not agree

nor do i believe

I guess they need to learn from this forum


if u guys are telling me

 

Why don't you come back  sometime when you don't have a chip on your shoulder, or a burr under your saddle.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 08:28
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yes sir!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 08:32
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Forget about the twilight factor for now because most consider it to be of little use. My own observations with many different optics support this.

A larger exit pupil gives you a bigger sweet spot that is very forgiving when glassing for extended periods. Something to think about, also.

As BirdWatcher pointed you in the direction of manufacturers who make glasses in your 8x50 range, you should give them a try.

The fact that so few make them in this range doesn't mean that they need to learn from O.T. opinions. It means that many of us support the reasons why there aren't more available.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 13:21
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Every different binocular configuration requires an additional investment into design and manufacturing.  Optics manufacturers pick the configurations that they think will be most popular and make those.  I am sure there are many other configurations that some of us will want (I want a high quality 7x30 roof and 6x30 porro, for example, but noone makes decent binoculars in these configurations any more), but there is not enough market to justify the expenditure.

There are some 8x50 binoculars that I've seen around.  For my purposes, they are not optimal, so that configuration is not very interesting to me, although I do expect to test a 8.5x50 Vortex Razor at some point.  Any optical instrument is a compromise.  We pick the configuration that emphasizes the qualities important to us.  I do not have the steadiest hands in the world, so I tend to lean toward lower magnification.  7x50 is just about perfect for my needs when the light is bad.  Keep in mind that in low light, hand tremors are more disruptive than in good light, and I can often see better through a 7x50 than through a 8x56 (I tried this experiment once, and the 8x56 had an advantage for the first few minutes, but as soon as my hands got a little fatigue, I saw better through a 7x50).

If you think that there is enough market for the 8x50 configuration, there is your market opportunity: start a company and make them.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 13:22
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Oh, twilight factor is one of the more useless terms I've ever heard.  Do a  search.  This has been discussed many times.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 14:00
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wow  guess we need to end this thread/......boy has it gotten off on the wrong foot

all i asked was foe feedback on 8x50 but i guess this isnt the place or no one tries 8x50's

sorry for the confusion

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 15:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2007 at 08:52
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Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

Sako

 Please compare a high magnified scope with 50-56mm objective to a 8X.

You will fairly soon realize that you cannot see anything in the high magnified scope unless it's very good light outside.

Instead of arguing, try it.

 Within optics people there is never meantioned the twilight factor as everyone knows from their own experince that it's just nonsence.

 Regards TEchnika



I agree, as the magnification increases, the FOV decreases and so the straw or peephole you look through to see reality is smaller because less light is now available to magnify.

Even though the power is higher, the amount of light "magnified" is less, so light transmission qualities get negated from having less light to work with.

If you've ever played with a camera, you will see as the telephoto increases power, so the F-stops change as less light enters the lens.

But I noticed by going to 50mm, you really increase weight and size.. the bino will also be taller to accommodate the larger lens's focal distance, so your short distance focus abilities will be less.

The short distance focal range of a 10 X 50 Swarovski was 16 feet, by dropping to a 42mm lens, it dropped to 8 feet.... maybe not a concern for long distance use only.

The only reason I see for going with 50mm is if you need the extra exit pupil for the magnification you feel you must have.... but if you can settle for less power, you can keep the same exit pupil with a smaller mm lens and gain other advantages too, like more stability, FOV, and depth of field.

If you can't keep the image still because your power is too high, your brain will actually interpret less info anyway.


Edited by windstrings - November/27/2007 at 09:03
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2007 at 16:06
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Sako,
I own an 8X50 Leica Trinovid.  It's a superb binocular optically and I love it, but damn, it's heavy and bulky!  I use it primarily for deer hunting out of a blind.  It has great low light performance, but not that much better than my 8X42 Vortex Razor, which is also excellent in low light.  For everyday use, I pretty much gravitate to the 8X42 or my Kahles 10X42 because at the end of a long day, I don't feel like I've been carrying a brick around my neck.  The bottom line is that although there is an advantage in light transmission with the 8X50, 8X42 seems to be a reasonable compromise between exit pupil, size, weight, and magnification.  Evidently, a sufficient number of people recognize this to the point the optics manufacturers are just making what sells.
 
I agree with the comments about magnification and low light.  Additional magnification is helpful for low light resolution up to a point to where the reduced FOV, reduced depth of field, and image stabilization problems from hand tremor (along with the reduced EP) with increasing magnification starts to become more of a liability than an asset.  For me, that point is beyond about 8X, and depending on the binocular, sometimes 10X.
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