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What’s wrong in Iraq

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/02/2007 at 20:05
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I felt inspired to get a few things off my chest about the war effort.  There has been a lot of hard work done there and as someone who spent 6 months there during the first elections and other associated craziness, I have some feelings about things to date:

 

1. The traitors in Congress who are circumventing and trying to sabotage the war efforts for political gain should be locked up...not shot for I would hate to see them be martyrs, they are pinkos and quislings of the first order...there is a special place in hell for them.  They actively give aid and comfort to the enemies of freedom in many ways worse than Hanoi Jane because unlike here they are violating the special trust of their offices and the oath they took on their first day of congressional service

 

2. The Iraqi people need to stand up to the foreign invaders, thugs, bullies and terrorists who are causing havoc.  The problem here is a people who collectively grew up in a repressive brutal dictatorship where survival was not standing out and not being noticed.  If something weird was going on, you just avoided it and tried not to get involved.  By the same token, if you see someone burying something in the road, that's not your problem, but guess what Haji, as soon as that IED goes off the other gun trucks may feel compelled to x-spray the area, especially if they see anyone who looks like they're running a camcorder.  And also guess what, you're an accessory after the fact because you didn't do something (call up the IPs or round up the neighborhood militia) when you had a chance.....Saddam is gone and you need to start taking some responsibility for your country

 

3. That idiot soccer dork who said he just wants the US out....I bet he wasn't on the team when Uday and Cusai were torturing them after they lost...or maybe he was one of their little pets?  I bet there weren't a lot of Shiite soccer stars in their time....so the whole thing smacks of being some sort of Baathist pretty boy....yeah your life is SO much worse now....the only way that is true is if you were part of the problem/former regime

 

4. The media.  Don't need to go into a lot of detail but this is similar to #1 plus with the extra angle that bad news sells...good news doesn't unless it supports your own political agenda.  They are irrelevant....I'll take FoxNews and the DrudgeReport (plus Rush and Glenn Beck....but you probably already figured out I listen to them and am therefore a hate monger).

 

5. Apathetic, undiscipline slovenly self-centered populace.  When you have a society that knows and cares more about who was on American Idol than the lessons of history, that's a scary bad thing.  In some ways we've become like the Roman Empire though thanks to the wonders of body armor, advanced weapons and communications, not all the warriors have died off in foreign lands.  Like the Romans we send the best, brightest and bravest to fight our wars....thankfully by and large most of our military comes home although you wouldn't think it given the doom and gloom over the 3K+ deaths.  I will not belittle their sacrifieces, Abraham Lincoln said some words once that really summed it up, but when you consider the military ordered 30,000 body bags in anticipation of the number of deaths, and look at the death tolls in places like Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Chosin, Ardennes, Gettysburg, Beleau Wood, Normandy, to name a few, we are very fortunate for technology, innovation by our military, air superiority, precision guided munitions, communications networks, satellite technology and all the other force enablers that allow us to kick a--

 

You've probably already seen this, and it may be already posted but if you haven't seen this Patton-esque update, it deserves a look and sums things up pretty good

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyUX6wV1lBQ

 

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VERY good post, sandsock.  I share your frustration and utter disgust over the spineless cowards and traitors in Congress and the media spin, as well as the worthwhile stories not covered about progress in Iraq.
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Thanks,

    I just realized my alibi was the Saudis and anyone else financing and spreading radical theology like Wahabism.  With "friends" like that, it makes it easier to accept people of the same ilk who say they hate you to your face like Muqtata Al Sadr (radical Islam's Eric Cartman equivalent) and the Iranian "government" (who have a lot of American and Iraqi blood on their hands as well.

v/r

Sand

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/03/2007 at 11:11
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Originally posted by sandsock sandsock wrote:

The traitors in Congress who are circumventing and trying to sabotage the war efforts for political gain should be locked up...not shot for I would hate to see them be martyrs, they are pinkos and quislings of the first order...there is a special place in hell for them.  They actively give aid and comfort to the enemies of freedom in many ways worse than Hanoi Jane because unlike here they are violating the special trust of their offices and the oath they took on their first day of congressional service

 

The problem with this logic is that it is too one-sided to be of much value.  You would seemingly condemn all who don't support the current war effort as traitors and put them on the fasttrack to Hell but, you fail to factor into your equation the failures and out-right deciet of the people who got us into this particular phase of the "war."  Although Saddam was a truly evil and terrible person/leader, he is only one of many in the world and we're not going after any of those others. The premise by which we entered Iraq was flawed. Some of the more salient points that must be remembered are:

  1. No weapons of mass destruction have ever been found in Iraq.
  2. No evidence of Iraqi collusion in the 9/11 attacks has been found.

These were the two primary justifications (there were of course, others) used by our government for entering Iraq in the first place. Neither of them have proven true. Furthermore, the current administration has been censured and blocked on more than one occasion for overstating and misleading the country as to the legitimacy of the danger Iraq posed and also for overstepping its legal bounds by engaging in such acts as torturing prisoners, domestic espionage, false reporting of events, and other essentially criminal acts.  

 

Had we stayed in Afghanistan (where the terrorists who perpetrated 9/11 actually are located,)  you wouldn't have such discord amongst Congressional leaders but, the reality is we entered Iraq under false premises and without any real plan for what to do once we got there.  This is legitimate fodder for debate and for potentially demanding the President give up his ill-conceived plan. We are currently spending something like 90 BILLION  dollars per MONTH on our campaign in Iraq.  Just one month's worth of such financing is enough to make every man, woman, and child in our country a MULTI-MILLIONAIRE - effectively ending poverty in our nation!!!!  I would think that this would have a greater tendency to ensure the security of more of our people than our current efforts are accomplishing.  

 

Irrespective of all that, the right to openly question and demand accountability from our Commander-in-Chief is one of the things that makes our country so great.  In fact, one of the expressed purposes of the Congressional Office is to provide the appropriate "checks and balances" that keep the Executive branch in line. This requires that they put the President's "feet to the fire" as it were. If they failed to do this, that would be the truly traitorous act.  Blind allegiance to the actions of the President and the military is the stuff that makes for dictatorships - just like Saddam's.  

 

Originally posted by sandsock sandsock wrote:

The Iraqi people need to stand up to the foreign invaders, thugs, bullies and terrorists who are causing havoc...

There are many who would point out that WE are among those foreign invaders.

 

Originally posted by sandsock sandsock wrote:

....yeah your life is SO much worse now....the only way that is true is if you were part of the problem/former regime

That's not entirely correct.  The amount of open, street level violence in Iraq has undeniably increased since we removed the oppressive elements that were keeping things under control.  This isn't an entirely bad thing and it is certainly for the overall and eventual good of the people there but, the chance of being hurt or killed by random acts of violence certainly is higher now than before and in that respect their lives are (at least temporarily) a bit worse off.

 

Originally posted by sandsock sandsock wrote:

4. The media.  Don't need to go into a lot of detail but this is similar to #1 plus with the extra angle that bad news sells...good news doesn't unless it supports your own political agenda.  They are irrelevant....I'll take FoxNews and the DrudgeReport (plus Rush and Glenn Beck....but you probably already figured out I listen to them and am therefore a hate monger).

I'll take them all.  At least that way I know that in the end I'll have a much better pool of information by which to make an informed decision.  The sources you cite as your preferred news entities provide great information but, they are certainly not impartial nor non-partisan.

 

Originally posted by sandsock sandsock wrote:

Apathetic, undiscipline slovenly self-centered populace.  When you have a society that knows and cares more about who was on American Idol than the lessons of history, that's a scary bad thing.  In some ways we've become like the Roman Empire though thanks to the wonders of body armor, advanced weapons and communications, not all the warriors have died off in foreign lands.  Like the Romans we send the best, brightest and bravest to fight our wars....thankfully by and large most of our military comes home although you wouldn't think it given the doom and gloom over the 3K+ deaths.  I will not belittle their sacrifieces, Abraham Lincoln said some words once that really summed it up, but when you consider the military ordered 30,000 body bags in anticipation of the number of deaths... we are very fortunate for technology, innovation by our military, air superiority, precision guided munitions, communications networks, satellite technology and all the other force enablers that allow us to kick a--

 

O.K., let's see:

  • The "scary bad thing" you mention.  I completely agree with that. Though I was sad when Haley Scarnatto (sp?) was kicked off because she was the one I pulled out of the hat for the office pool.
  • Becoming like the Roman Empire.   Again I agree (Though, perhaps not for the same reasons. )
  • Sending the "best, brightest, and bravest to fight our wars." Not sure I would accept that premise.  It's cute and would make a great line for buttering up the troops but, isn't really based on any objective fact.
  • 3,000 deaths instead of the anticipated 30K deaths is definately good but, if we are in Iraq under false premises then, even those 3,000 (or even many less) becomes unacceptable.  

The points you make are mostly good ones and they definately have a place in any discussion about our efforts in combating terrorism.   You just need to be careful to leave room for others to have and freely express their discord and dissent with those points.  Not everyone, even among Republicans and normal supporters of the President, agrees with the choice to enter Iraq nor with the current plan for what to do there

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/03/2007 at 12:05
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I find Iraq the problem of not seeing the forest through the trees….

 

Historically…

Iraq was a fabricated country boiled down to the British Empire building and then leaving the region...  Eventually with no outer influences in Iraq the group with the most power filled that vacuum; which gave us Saddam Hussein.

 

Fast forward to and past 911…

 

Again...  it boils down to the U.S. goes into places like Afghanistan to kill or capture any elements that are responsible or have connections with Bin Laden.

 

Iraq and Saddam are sold as an extension of going after a past, present and perhaps a future threat (WMDs) to the U.S.  We go to war and win the war; but if we win the peace is the question we are all debating.

The goal and debate has transformed in Iraq not of eliminating threats and protecting interests of the U.S. but to eliminating threats of democracy to the Iraqi Government and nation building.  To add it is my opinion that the U.S. is full of political cowards that cannot say what they mean and do what is necessary in the American Interest; because of the sickness of globalism, political correctness and cronyism.  (Watch their feet not their mouths)

Why the borders of Iraq with Iran and Syria aren’t completely closed with the added and obvious tap dancing we do towards the Iranians; shows me that we aren’t able to deal with the situation.

 

On a side note: This issue reminds me a lot of our U.S. - Mexican Gov’t love affair and how we can’t deal with our southern border problems. (Can’t deal with Mexico how are we going to do with any other country in the world?)

Anyway back to the topic:  We need to first do what is in the best interest of the U.S. If we are truly at war; let us be at war.  If the Iranians are a problem; let us treat them as such….  If we are nation building and not at war… lets us break the country into its three factions and let them kill each other; at least it’s them not us.

 

Patton said what he meant and did what he said... he thought he was re incarnated but he wasn't Bi Polar!



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Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

The problem with this logic is that it is too one-sided to be of much value.  You would seemingly condemn all who don't support the current war effort as traitors and put them on the fasttrack to Hell......

I don't believe that his condemnation is at all directed at those who simply don't support the war.  I think I'm safe in saying his condemnation is instead directed at those who originally supported the war based on the exact same intelligence that Bush had and most nations around the world concurred with, then once we're there, are fully invested and hell-bent on insuring defeat for obvious political reasons.  These politicians would rather risk allowing an even more brutal regime than Saddam's to take over Iraq, putting the world in greater danger, than to support the completion of a mission that could very well result in another ally (of which we have few) in the Middle East, a mission that is recently showing some hope of succeeding.  Even some left-leaning reporters who recently returned from Iraq reluctantly admitted that things are getting better as a result of the most recent troop surge.  It is obvious their maneuvering is purely a political game, because if they truly had the courage of their convictions, rather than pandering to those who simply hate Bush no matter what, they'd go ahead and cut funding for the war now.  But they won't because they fear the political backlash from doing so.  How sad must it be to actually hope the U.S. fails in an attempt to regain power in the next presidential election?  There's nothing wrong with disagreement, but after we're committed, it is quite frankly treasonous to actively undermine the success of our soldiers' mission (which again, is slowly showing signs that it may be working) and providing useful propaganda to our enemies.  I happen to believe it is spineless, immoral, and unconscionable to pound the podium demanding that we take action in Iraq and then, once we're there and some of our finest are dying in the prosecution of the war, try to separate themselves from the grown-up decisions they helped make, even actively working to undermine the effort, putting more of our soldiers in danger.  To say they were deceived is pure b.s.  They knew damn well what the intelligence said and what they were voting on.

Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

but, you fail to factor into your equation the failures and out-right deciet of the people who got us into this particular phase of the "war."  Although Saddam was a truly evil and terrible person/leader, he is only one of many in the world and we're not going after any of those others. The premise by which we entered Iraq was flawed.

Can you prove deceit?  Assuming our intelligence was wrong, that doesn't at all mean deceit.  If the weatherman says it will likely rain tomorrow based on all the data at his disposal and it turns out it didn't, does that mean he intentionally deceived you, or that he was just wrong? 

 

With the intelligence provided to us by our allies and pseudo allies on Saddam's intent to attack us after the first Gulf War, his repeated violations of the terms of the cease-fire, his repeated attempts to procure uranium and the technologies to produce nuclear weapons, his use of WMD on his own people, his monetary support for terrorists, the presence of terrorist training camps in Iraq, and the mass killings of hundreds of thousands, by some estimates, millions of his own people that makes Slobodan Milosevik look like a boy scout in comparison, I agree with the administration that we couldn't afford to second guess Saddam's intentions given the climate we found ourselves in following the 9/11 attacks.  The current war (or, really, it is just a battle in the larger war against terrorism that will wage on for many years to come whether we like it or not) is a continuation of the 1991 war.  I'm no fan of the U.N., but if the cease fire resolution that Saddam repeatedly violated wasn't enforced with military action, it makes a mockery of the resolution and renders any future resolutions agreed upon by the international community impotent.  Again, I can't stand the U.N., but the whole reason it was established to begin with was to prevent the rise of another Hitler.  We were the only power that had the ability to enforce the resolution and had legal authority to do so.

 

It's funny and rather disingenuous how some of the very same people who supported the military action in Bosnia for purely humanitarian reasons, and who currently call for military action in Darfur, also for humanitarian reasons, do not support a war effort that stopped genocide on an even larger scale in Iraq.  It seems that these people have select concern for their fellow mankind, only interested in helping the oppressed if there is absolutely no other secondary security interest to the United States at stake.

 

Yes, there are bad regimes all over the world, but not all situations call for military action, nor do we have the ability to take military action against every rogue regime.

Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

Some of the more salient points that must be remembered are:

1. No weapons of mass destruction have ever been found in Iraq. .

While that's technically incorrect,

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15918

that was only one of the many reasons for invading Iraq.  Nobody in their right mind expected to find stockpiles of nukes.  We found exactly what we expected to find, albeit certainly not in the numbers we expected.  So?  We also don't know that there AREN'T more WMD hidden somewhere, perhaps even moved out of the country.  There may have even been MORE WMD than we thought that hasn't been found yet.  What if tomorrow we found 2 million metric tons of biological weapons hidden in a bunker under the sand?  Would that change your mind about the war?  I'm betting not.  Saddam's refusal to allow inspectors free reign and his deceitful behavior, combined with his actual use of WMD against the Kurds, along with intelligence from most civilized countries around the world that all agreed he had WMD made it reasonable to conclude he did.  However, since he didn't have a long range delivery system for WMD, that was never the main threat anyway.  It was the very intent and philosophy of Saddam that made Iraq dangerous to the world to begin with, not necessarily the WMD he had or didn't have at the time of invasion.  In addition to his financial support to terrorism, it was proven without a doubt he was actively pursuing nuclear weapons, especially given that 20 years earlier, Israel bombed a nuclear reactor they built that their undercover Mossad agents discovered was produced mainly to enrich uranium.

Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

No evidence of Iraqi collusion in the 9/11 attacks has been found.

Nor was that EVER alleged by the administration before the war.  That was a strawman argument created by the left and the media pundits.  I dare you to show me where ANY administration official EVER alleged that to be the case and used it as justification to go to war in Iraq.  I'll save you the effort... you won't find any such statements.

Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

These were the two primary justifications (there were of course, others) used by our government for entering Iraq in the first place. .

Not true.&nbs

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you know what i think about the whole war thing is this, war went from being ruthless, doing whatever it took to defeat the enemy to so f**king much red tape bullsh*t, that war all of a sudden is nicey nicey, and thats bullsh*t, shoot first ask questions later would have saved a lot of lives, but now there are all these rules of engagement, what a bunch of sh*t, ive got friends that just got back from iraq and they told me all about it, and that was the biggest complaint other than how long they were there, was the fact that to defend your self you needed be fired on? if i see a dude running around with a rag on his head with an ak, im sorry fmj out of my m-4 to his head.  if it werent for all this crap to deal with to make the war more civil if you will, we could have just pushed the red button and turn iraq into the grand canyon of the middle east. i support our troops and i dont point any fingers on any of our elected officials, we were just defending ourselves i can completly support that, but all these un rules of war gotta go, war sucks bottom line.
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New Plan

Each time an IED goes off we pull back 10 miles and carpet bomb 5 square miles surrounding the IED.

 

How long do you think it would take to change the hearts and minds that way.

 

Plan addendum - We will send them Hillary, and she can take Their guns away.

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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

New Plan

Each time an IED goes off we pull back 10 miles and carpet bomb 5 square miles surrounding the IED.

 

How long do you think it would take to change the hearts and minds that way.

 

Plan addendum - We will send them Hillary, and she can take Their guns away.

and not let her back in!! i like your plan!

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I do not believe that it is possible to bring a society controled by muslim religious leaders into the light of modern culture or democracy.

It is foolish to think that you can overcome the religious beliefs of a people whose religion tells them to "kill the infidel" --- who is the infidel - well its anyone who does not agree with them and do things their way. That ideology has sealed not only their fate but that of all who opose them. It is a life or death struggle.  We on the other hand want to reason with our enemy show kindness to our enemy and are lacking in the resolve to support our wariors and to totally destroy the enemy without mercy. Our rules of engagement are too restrictive they should read kill anyone who represents a threat to the U.S. Our media has made a circus out of displaying stories that cast doubt on the ability of our soldiers. Fact is -- we are in this and there is no easy way to back out, and likely as not it will become larger and worse no matter if there is a republican or democrat in office. First we need to buy a clue from General Sherman's march through Georgia it was not kind but it was effective. We need military leaders with the resolve that General Patton had and we need the citizens of our country to support and encourage our military. We need politicians who have not sold out the voting citizen in favor of big corporate money. DUTY HONOR COUNTRY  -  that self sacrificing loyalty belongs to honest decent men serving leaders who's political agenda is the same --- DUTY HONOR COUNTRY,  not to leaders blinded by their own personal greed for riches and power. In the last several years our oil companies have made record profit at our expense while with each news event the scare factor was used as an excuse to drive up the price of fuel. Is it suspect that two Texas oil men invaded a country with oil and used war as an economic factor to artifically stimulate the economy. We have been distracted while our manufacturing sector has moved to  China - a comunist nation. It was only our manufacturing sector that allowed us to win WW1 and WW2. Our kinder more gentle government failed to control our borders allowing millions of illegals into the country where we provide them social services they have made no contribution  to recieve.  We have special treatment rather than equal treatment by race and sex that encourages continued problems, equal should mean equal.

We have a legal system where the wealthy are treated differently than the poor and justice is thwarded by technicalities.  And in spite of this mass corruption we live in the greatest civilization under the most fair form of government the world has ever known.  Can we make it better  - -  YES



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
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I would say there are many more moderate "Friday Muslims" (opposed to Sunday Christians) that zealous a--holes in Iraq.  Saudi Arabia is the opposite and why they are a big problem in my mind.  I think you'll find that a lot of Iraqi "insurgents" are Saudi, Jordanian and Syrian nationals.  On our side of things we have long been plagued by the "enemy within" and I'm speaking specifically about people like Hillary, Feinstein, Kennedy, Reid, Pelosi and their ilk who secretly hate America and every principle we're built on (particularly the 2nd Amendment) which is a litmus test in my mind on who should/shouldn't be turned into soylent green.  It is these very pinkos that have insidiously been weakening us since the end of WW2, starting with the pinko academics why began brainwashing their spoiled sorry a--es in the 50s.  I'm not suggesting some sort of McCarthyistic purge because I believe he was seriously misguided and flawed and created backlash from some of his stupid tactics but it is plain to me that 1% of the population makes a lot of stupid policy and the rest of us are just too nice to speak up/vote them out in the interest of political correctness and "getting along"   I agree with pretty much everything most have said here, and like U-R states we can make it better but it takes the courage to do so.
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 I just wish we had a spot on the ballet for  NONE OF THE ABOVE  and if over 33% the people checked it they had to give us two more choices.

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Let me start this off by saying that I am very pro military.  In fact I planned to be a lifer until my career was cut short by a service related injury.  Let me also say that I strongly supported the invasion of Iraq.  Let me now say that I am completely against the strategy that has taken over since the invasion.  You invade Iraq so that you can stage against the real terrrorist enemies in Iran and Syria.  Sitting around and playing police is not a job for the military.  Regardless of what Generals and politicians say, we are not nation builders.  We are good at toppling nations.  If I were in charge, I would immediately secure the oilfields, pipelines, ports, and my Avenues of Approach into Iran and Syria.  It would take about a week if you declared those areas to be free fire zones.  I would pull every troop out of every Iraqi city.  I would put my own Saddam Hussein in power and let the I raqis sort out their own issues.  I would then launch a full scale invasion into Iran and follow the same plan that I described in Iraq.  I believe that Syria would quickly clean up their act and an invasion there would probably not be needed.  After all of that I would have the bulk of the troops home in 12-18 months total.  The only thing we need from any of these people is oil.  We tried to treat them as equals and it didn't work.  Kill the terrorist and take the oil!

 

ranburr  

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Amen, ranburr -

 

I am sick and tired of hearing about our own govenment tying the hands of our military and keeping them in harms way.

 

Let our boys and girls fight.  Or get em the hell out of the sand-cities.

 

We need to clean house in our own country and secure OUR borders.  There are plenty of terrorists here already, i bet.

 

What a sad state of affairs when our politicians are too concerned w/ re-election and special interests to do what is right.

Makes me completely sick.  I can't even watch the news anymore w/out getting pissed off at the media.  It's a business,

not a service - they make money on reporting negativity.

 

I love this country AND our military - but things need to change.
we have completely lost our backbone and balls.

 

Political Correctness WILL be the end of this great country.

 

J

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+1 on what ranburr said.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2007 at 14:11
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I would support the above scenario if it includes rounding up the malcontents and political turncoats in our country and shipping them over there to be indentured servants/day laborers for the new regime.....make Iraq our version of 19th century Australia.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2007 at 14:15
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i could go along w/ that scenario.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/18/2007 at 17:37
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The other option is to destroy the oilfields and leave, then there is nothing to fight over, and they have no source of income to fund terrorism. That will never happen though because of the greed and stupidity of our corporations, the same corporations who have gone out of their way to bring us massive quantities of products from China. When I was a kid there was a little bit of stuff from Taiwan but little if anything we bought was made in China and nothing came from Vietnam, those Communist countries do not have our best interests at heart. If I remember correctly it wasn't until Bill Clinton was in office that we started seeing everything come in from China.

I wonder how much they are contribuiting to Hillary's campaign.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2007 at 00:34
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Gotta disagree with you here.  If you don't have big business, you have nothing.  Big business is a good thing.  without it, we are all flipping burgers for a living.  There is no such thing as corporate greed.  Corporations are merely a reflection of the market.  The market is currently more focused on profits rather than quality and reinvestment in the U.S. workplace.  Your 401K and private investments are what dictate business policy in this country.  The issue is one of personal greed.  Share holders (mainly average people) can always demand changes within any publicly traded company.  The problem is, how many meetings of shareholdser have ended in a vote of "let's cut out profitability, let the stock suffer, and strengthen the future for American workers".  The real mission of any publicly held company is to simply maximize profits for shareholders.  Unless you are prepared to take a hit in your portfolio and pocketbook, this is the way things are going to be for the forseeable future.  By the way, never talk about destroying a beautiful oilfield to a Texan.  Unless of course your going to give me the contract to rebuild it! 

 

ranburr   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2007 at 06:34
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

The other option is to destroy the oilfields and leave, then there is nothing to fight over, and they have no source of income to fund terrorism. That will never happen though because of the greed and stupidity of our corporations, the same corporations who have gone out of their way to bring us massive quantities of products from China. When I was a kid there was a little bit of stuff from Taiwan but little if anything we bought was made in China and nothing came from Vietnam, those Communist countries do not have our best interests at heart. If I remember correctly it wasn't until Bill Clinton was in office that we started seeing everything come in from China.

I wonder how much they are contribuiting to Hillary's campaign.

probably a bunch cause they figure she will get guns out of the american citizens hands as well

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2007 at 17:04
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There are those who say,,,,"that if we can only just sit down and just talk to the terrorists and negotiate with them, everything will be ok"...........WRONG!!!!! While the appeasing leftist liberals negotiate, the terrorist organizations are planning their next big surprise attack!!!!!...............You anti war appeasers out there can`t remember your history!....... Saddam was given every opportunity to disclose the whereabouts of the WMD`s!..... Resolution # 1441 states, that it was up to Saddam to prove that the WMD`s did not exist or disclose what he did with them.......It was NOT up to the U.S. to prove that they existed...........Saddam himself, could have prevented the Iraqi war! He violated EVERY U.N. resolution (17 of them), since the 1st gulf war!!........ALL of the WORLDWIDE intel agencies AGREED that the WMD`s did exist in Iraq!!............ALL of the democrats had access to the SAME intel AND voted for the war!!!.....Had Saddam NOT been stopped, he would have re-constituted his WMD program and continued to oppress to continully kill and execute the Iraqi people. Evidence and testimony support that......... But! YOU guttless, appeasing liberals don`t care!.......If we leave Iraq, thousands upon thousands, possibly millions of Iraqi`s will die......Remember Cambodia & Vietnam after we left? MILLIONS DIED!......But! You guttless, appeasing liberals don`t care!....If we leave Iraq, Iran will generate their power and create more havoc and destruction in the long term!!....But! You guttless, appeasing liberals don`t care!!...........Had Saddam remained in power, terrorists would have gained access to his developed WMD`s in the future, potentially making 9-11 look like a bake sale!.....But! You guttless appeasing liberals don`t care!!!.........Never mind all of the previous attacks over the years!! The Kobart Towers, the 2 U.S. embassies in Africa, Pan Am 103, the USS Cole, the 1ST World Trade Center bombing in 1993, the attack in Bali which killed 200, the train attack in Spain killing about 200 there as well, the most recent attacks in London AND 9-11 ITSELF!...... NEVERMIND the failed plot to BLOW UP 10 jet liners over the Atlantic. NEVERMIND the most recent failed plot at JFK Airport........NEVERMIND the evil that is upon us and just sweep it under a rug!.......WE ARE AT WAR with an ideaology that wants us ALL dead or conform,,,INCLUDING YOU APPEASING GUTTLESS LIBERALS!!! PERIOD!!!..........The Iraqi war could have been fought much better!....The cause however,,,is a noble one and a just one!..............The above ARE FACTS, NOT emotional ramblings and talking points!..... Of course, facts to a bunch of ill-informed toe tag liberals is like Kryptonite to Superman!!!....Never mind too, that the current surge in Iraq is working!!!!!...........Never mind that along with appeasement of our enemies, todays modern far left liberal Democratic party, if elected to the White House, wants HIGHER taxes, MORE gov`t, socialized health care, which in other countries by the way,,,DOESN`T WORK, re-distribution of wealth (take away from the successful dooers and give to the ones who chose their way in life)......Nevermind the principles of the Constitution. To the libs,,,IF IT FEELS GOOD POLITICALLY OR OTHERWISE, THEN JUST DO IT!!!................Never mind their plan to take away your rights to gun ownership!!!.....Good news for America, IS BAD NEWS FOR DEMOCRAT LIBERALS!..... Good news in Iraq, IS BAD NEWS FOR DEMOCRAT LIBERALS!.......Good news for the economy, IS BAD NEWS FOR DEMOCRAT LIBERALS!.........More money in your pocket, IS BAD NEWS FOR DEMOCRAT LIBERALS!...............................Winston Churchill was hated too for doing the right thing and standing up against evil,,, AND,,,, WARNING EUROPE,,,,to the threat of Adolph Hitler!!!..... BUT NO!!! The appeasers wouldn`t listen! And, just like today, the appeasers just don`t listen!!...........FACT! Appeasement emboldened Hitler to invade which lead to millions and millions of deaths in Europe. Had Europe properly foreseen and taken action, MILLIONS of lives would have been saved..............The troops in Iraq for the most part, want to be there, finish the job and win the war..... So! To you appeasing liberal democrats!! Stop complaining about the lives lost in Iraq, especially when history proves, beyond any doubt, that your failed policies of APPEASEMENT, combined with lack of action, leads to MANY more lives being lost!!!!.................If pre-emption is needed to save American lives, then so be it!!!..........If we need to listen to oversees Al-Queda conversations, which liberals oppose, to foil plots, then so be it!........No thanks to the liberal democrat politicians, appeasers and Bush haters, there have been no major attacks in the U.S. since 9-11 and numerous plots have been foiled!!!.............History 101 of the past and the Constitution need to be taught in our schools. It isn`t anymore! We can all thank the wonderful liberal establishment for that and our wonderful liberal biased news media for distorting the truth about Iraq, the economy, or anything else that`s in reality,,,,,,good news for America!!!!      
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2007 at 18:45
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I wish to make it very clear, that my last post was not directed specifically to anyone on this thread! However, there may be some who visit this sight who maintain the radical views of which I have denounced in my post.......If you are in that category, you are still entitled to your beliefs or opinions, that`s fine. But in reality, I hope I hit you hard with a 2x4 across your skull, figureatively speaking of course!.............One last thing not mentioned before. ALL of the prior attacks that I referred to occurred,,,,, BEFORE we went to Iraq!!!!.....If you radicals of today had been alive during WW2 and running things,,,we would have lost that war!!! With no retaliation response after Pearl Harbor either??? Highly likely from an appeasement mentality. Other than geography, don`t tell me that Pearl Harbor and 9-11 were any different!...............
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2007 at 16:22
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By the way as far as Weapons of Mass Distruction I have a friend who was in a position within the Air Force to know and he says - yes there really were Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq and he has seen the intel photos and they have been moved to Syria.   I work with a soldier who has skin damage from chemical WMD's used in the Gulf War by Sadam.

 

So I cant buy the lame argument - we didnt find WMD's and by the way there is a lot of  other ordnance that we didnt find  either and it is getting used to make IED's. I've seen the photos of the stuff 224th Engineers blew up - piles and piles of explosive ordnance and Ive been told that they could do that for ten years and never put a dent in what is there in the way of ordnance. 

 

Destroy the oil fields and there is nothing left to fight over.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2007 at 18:30
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Urimaginaryfrnd.........................You are ABSOLUTELY correct! There is ample evidence and testimony from a George Esada who in fact was one of Saddam`s Iraqi Air Force officials, who has since defected to the U.S., that categorically stated in testimony before members of Congress, that several hundred tons of WMD`s were in fact flown to Syria during the 14 month lead up to the war!!!!........In the NY Times? Hell no!.....The LA Times? Hell no!.....In any major newspaper? Hell no!..............................Media bias here?? Hell yes!....There is absolutely no accountability in todays liberal media! They report matters and distort the truth,,,,,IF,,,,it supports their liberal agenda! They love bad news in Iraq! They love bad news for the economy! They just love bad news!!! WHY? Because there is a Republican in the White House! That`s why!..........To all you Bush haters out there!......What document or documents, eye witness testimonies, can you produce as VIABLE evidence, beyond ANY reasonable doubt whatsoever, that can prove, that in fact, Bush deliberately lied us into the Iraq war???? Don`t you blithering liberal idiots think that with a majority of democrats in the house and senate, this would have been vigorously pursued IF such evidence existed????? DAAAAAA!!!!!!
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