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what should i buy?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2008 at 18:22
jackh View Drop Down
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i know its such a noob question but here it goes...
 
i recently bought an armalite ar15 with an armalite 6.8 spc upper. im gonna use this for mild long range plinking and lots of deer/hog hunting.
 
ive been told a 3-9 would be sufficient for hunting but id like atleast a 4-12 for some extra power when i need it. ive looked into lots of brands but i dont wanna spend more than $450. ive narrowed it down to these:
 
Nikon 4-16x42 monarch- $449
Nikon 4.5-14x40 buckmaster- $299
Bushnell 5-15x40 elite 3200 w/ fire fly reticle- $314
Bushnell 4-12x40 elite 3200 w/ multi x reticle- $269
 
i REALLY like the BDC reticles on some of the nikons. the bushnell 5-15 is pushing my power limit cuz i dont want to lose light fast since i hunt a lot of mornings/evenings. quality glass is important in my buy, but i have a pretty low price limit :(
 
im a total noob that just wants a quality scope for my purposes. i was referred here from another forum b/c this is the place to learn about optics. any comments/suggestions are welcome. thanks a ton
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2008 at 18:47
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Even though I think your over scopeing this rifle, I would recommend the Nikon Monarch.  It is the most expensive, but it is the best of the bunch listed.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2008 at 19:19
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I agree with lucytuma!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2008 at 19:20
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Monarch all the way 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2008 at 23:01
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so yall suggest a 3-9 over a 4-12 for this gun or what? i really like the team primos editions but those are last years line so ive been told. should i bother looking into them or just look into a new monarch in 3-9? do they have one in 50mm? can i get a sunshade for it?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2008 at 23:15
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Hey Jackh,
I am the guy from the 6.8 forum who pointed you here.
glad to see you made it
as for power, really boils down to what you are doing with it
if you want to shoot tiny groups at 300 yards, yes, lots of magnification is good
however, lower low end power is better for hunting

the Team Primos is a good deal

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 00:33
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Im not sure why you are not comparing the 4-16x42 Monarch to the 4-16x40 Bushnell 4200 that would be a better comparison and I think I like the 4200 better but its a close call.
 
Also for you 6.8spc guys if you want hi cap mags there are some at mid way usa.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - December/17/2008 at 00:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 07:32
ccoker View Drop Down
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if you are looking at it for target work, have you had a chance to really had a chance to test it for how small of groups you can get?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 16:16
jackh View Drop Down
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ya i recognized the name ccoker, thanks for pointing me here.
 
how is the Bushnell 4-16x40 Elite 4200 better than the Nikon 4-16x42 Monarch? i had looked at them both and i had chosen the monarch b/c of the BDC reticle to be honest with you. heres the specs on both from swfa:
 

Bushnell 4-16x40 Elite 4200 Rifle Scope

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Specifications
Weight (oz): 18.6


Multi-X

Length (in): 14.4
Eye Relief (in): 3.5
Field of View @ 100yds (ft): 26 - 7
Exit Pupil (mm): 25 - 10
MOA: 1/8
Lens Coating: Fully Multi-Coated
Warranty: Limited Lifetime
Side Focus Range (yds): 25 - infinity
 

Nikon 4-16x42 Monarch Riflescope

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Specifications
Weight (oz): 18


BDC

Length (in): 13.5
Eye Relief (in): 4 - 3.7
Field of View @ 100 yards (ft): 25.2 - 6.3
Exit Pupil (mm): 2.6
MOA: 1/4
Parallax Setting (yds): 50 - infinity

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 16:18
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they are both good, given your situation i would probably take the nikon
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 17:06
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I don't care for Nikons BDC reticle,  don't like the little circles, just my opinion
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 17:15
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what style site would you take over the BDC? i just like that it has a place for you to line up at 200 yds on out so theres no guessing like aiming a foot over the shoulder for instance.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 17:20
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the bdc doesnt bother you after a couple of range sessions you wont even know its there
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 17:27
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++.  Shoot with it a bit, you'll love it.  Like anything else, it requires practice to become accustomed to it, once you get there, you'll never look back.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 17:31
ccoker View Drop Down
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I had a Monarch (3-12) with the BDC and didn't like it hunting when trying to shoot in between the ranges, say at 250

with a regular reticle and the 6.8, just set it dead on at 200, you will be about 1.5 high at 100 and dead on at 50

how oftern are you really going to be shooting at 300-400?
out to 250, just put the crosshairs on it squeeze the trigger, game over
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 17:49
jackh View Drop Down
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im not sure i get what your saying... if its set dead on at 200, 1.5 inches high as 100, how will it be dead on at 50? wouldn't it be like 3 inches high? 
 
and i have no idea how often ill be shoting 300-400, but if i decide to the BDC will be useful. plus if i ever get a light tactical bold gun i could throw this on there, maybe change to a less powerful scope on the 6.8. make the bolt my target/deer rifle, 6.8 would be targets/varmits/beer cans sh*t idk. i think its to each his own on how well the BDCs liked.
 
are our 6.8s pretty flat shooting guns? whats it effective out to?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 18:05
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http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx
BDC reticles are wonderful as long as you can stand shooting only at the highest power. The problem comes when you take a 4-16x40mm scope and dial the power down as it gets dark to brighten up the image.  40mm divided by 7mm exit eye pupil (bright) puts you down at 5.7 power lets say 6x  so now we have those nifty marks on the BDC in the second focal plane and while  X is 100 or 200 which ever you chose, those BDC marks do not in any way represent where the bullet will hit at 300, 400, 500  it is a sure miss using them because as the scope power decreases from 16x back to the 6x the field of view increased so since the reticle stayed the same the marks represent nothing.  Alternatively take a duplex and use the finger adjustablet target style knobs zero at 200 and see how many clicks up 300 is and 400 is write a note on the inside of the flip up lens cap and you know  EX: add +3moa (use balistic calculator for the correct amount)  for 300 yd  or + 8.5 moa for 400yds.  You can do this with either the Nikon or the Bushnell  just realize you need to dial in correction and use the center crosshairs when not using the max power with the BDC.  The only thing I really dont like about the Bushnell is the clicks are 1/8moa which makes 8 clicks to the inch at 100 yds,  I'd rather have 1/4moa but I like the B glass really well and the rainguard lens coating is very nice plus you get the free jacket so I could live with 1/8 moa.

Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - December/17/2008 at 18:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 18:23
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I have a friend who bought that scope with the Firefly and doesn't like it, the reticle is MUCH THICKER than the standard reticules.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2008 at 19:44
jackh View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx
BDC reticles are wonderful as long as you can stand shooting only at the highest power. The problem comes when you take a 4-16x40mm scope and dial the power down as it gets dark to brighten up the image.  40mm divided by 7mm exit eye pupil (bright) puts you down at 5.7 power lets say 6x  so now we have those nifty marks on the BDC in the second focal plane and while  X is 100 or 200 which ever you chose, those BDC marks do not in any way represent where the bullet will hit at 300, 400, 500  it is a sure miss using them because as the scope power decreases from 16x back to the 6x the field of view increased so since the reticle stayed the same the marks represent nothing.  Alternatively take a duplex and use the finger adjustablet target style knobs zero at 200 and see how many clicks up 300 is and 400 is write a note on the inside of the flip up lens cap and you know  EX: add +3moa (use balistic calculator for the correct amount)  for 300 yd  or + 8.5 moa for 400yds.  You can do this with either the Nikon or the Bushnell  just realize you need to dial in correction and use the center crosshairs when not using the max power with the BDC.  The only thing I really dont like about the Bushnell is the clicks are 1/8moa which makes 8 clicks to the inch at 100 yds,  I'd rather have 1/4moa but I like the B glass really well and the rainguard lens coating is very nice plus you get the free jacket so I could live with 1/8 moa.
 
wow thats a very good explanation, i did not know any of that. so the BDC reticle is only useful when the scopes powered all the way up? ill see what else i can get. should i look into the 3200 or 4200s? whats the difference between the two? the rainguard would certainly be handy. im liking the idea of a tactical style scope that i can dial easily for different distances. should i look into a millet? im just shooting ideas around here, help would be greatly appreciated
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2008 at 05:07
jackh View Drop Down
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i think im starting to change my mind. id like to throw a decent 3-9 on my 6.8 and save the money for a larger scope once i get a long range bolt gun. lookin into that sniper central entry level package. its a super good deal. id add camo and probably that 3200 5-15 on it too, call it done.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2008 at 06:38
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do you still have a question then or have you figured out what you want?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2008 at 08:05
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Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:

I had a Monarch (3-12) with the BDC and didn't like it hunting when trying to shoot in between the ranges, say at 250

with a regular reticle and the 6.8, just set it dead on at 200, you will be about 1.5 high at 100 and dead on at 50

how oftern are you really going to be shooting at 300-400?
out to 250, just put the crosshairs on it squeeze the trigger, game over
Let me comment here.  BDC scopes are NOT magic.  Learning to use one properly requires two elements, 1) study, 2) range time.  However, shooting proficiently with any weapon requires those things.  Once the capabilities and limitations of a particular reticle are discovered, they are no longer a mystery.  Any BDC must be "calibrated" for the particular ammo one will use with it.  Change ammo, it must be recalibrated, some sort of record/data book created and retained.  Again, they are NOT magic.  However, if the 1) study, 2) range time are invested, BDC reticles are extremely useful tools.   A BDC reticle can also be used just like a standard duplex, IF one desires to do so.  Establish a "battle sight zero" on the primary crosshairs and you should be good out to 300 yards with no exploration of the features of the BDC portion of the reticle.  You, as the user, must decide how much time you are willing to invest in learning to adequately use/master a particular shooting aid.  IT IS NOT MAGIC.  But, if you are willing to invest time, have a need, or just a desire, for expanded capability with a weapon over extended ranges, the BDC is a good way to go.  IF you are not willing to invest the time, and some funds for ammo, then it is probably not a good choice.  It is not magic.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2008 at 09:39
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jackh,
 
Concerning your question about sighting for a 200 yard zero.  The bore of your rifle is a fixed distance below the centerline of your scope.  When you fire, the bullet exits the bore and travels in an arc to the target.  It actually passes thru zero twice.  It leaves the bore and travels up thru the centerline of your scope(the first zero) and eventually reaches the top of the arc.  From there it falls until it comes back thru the centerline of your scope again which is the distance at which your scope is "zeroed".  Using the information from the previous post - the bullet exits the bore which is below the centerline of your scope.  It travels up and intersects the first zero at 25 yards.  The bullet then passes thru the 100 yard range at 1.5 " above the scope centerline.  By the time it reaches 200yards, it has fallen back to the centerline of the scope and thus it is referred to as a 200 yard zero.
 
Hope this was helpful - I tend to over explain things, so just ignore any excess verbage.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2008 at 12:21
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Kickboxer,
I agree, I handload and shoot a LOT and know my guns very, very well
no offense taken by your post and I agree 100% with you..

I just don't think that they are really needed and prefer (ME) a less complicated reticle and have also played with numerous tactical type reticles and just don't like the cluttered view personally.. obviously others like them and that's cool

for hunting I have gone full circle from the normal +1.5 (or +2, whatever) at 100 yards and knowing the trajectory confirmed by shooting to balistic drop reticles back to +1.5 (dependant upon gun/caliber) and knowing my points of impact at varying yardages

I bought a Kahles Multizero 3-10x50 for my 308, I am now shooting a 270 with 130g bullets and that scope is on it now, not using the MZ function and am about to go to 110g bullets for a very flat trajectory


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2008 at 12:30
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ccoker,
Certainly no offense intended.  My major point is that one can get used to a BDC reticle,  but it requires work.  Many people buy them thinking they are the "do all, end all, for everyone".  They are not.  IF one wishes to use a BDC effectively, there is some work required.  Then, the experience must be maintained, because this is one of those "skills" that begins to deteriorate pretty quickly.  "let's see, did I hold at the lower edge of the first circle or the top edge of the second circle for that range...or was it the third circle????"  An exaggeration perhaps, but close enough.  

Oh, I see, I hit the "QUOTE" button by mistake.  


Edited by Kickboxer - December/19/2008 at 12:32
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