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WHAT IS THE BEST COMBAT, LEO, RIFLE SCOPE

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338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
Optics Master
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2009 at 20:55
This is a dumb question why do people steer away from the ACOG's for this Duty Requirement.  Is it the price tag...  I have seen them run over it can be hit with a 7.62 and still function flawlessly...(39 not 54r or at least not AP never saw 54 hit one have seen ak round strike).  You can throw it down and not worry about it...
Also they are superb for fast target aquisition and can still give you the range.  I would say possible the fastest target aquisition for close quarters combat (EO-TECH 2nd but does not meet magnification requirements)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2009 at 21:14

Most civilians baby their gear, so ACOG loses some luster.  And they are fixed-power, another negative in most civilian markets.

For a combat optic, they are good scopes; for a deer rifle, not so much: at least in the eyes of the average guy.

ILya, I've heard great things about March scopes, I too am anxious to play with one in January.  I have yet to see one on the range, so haven't touched one; but they are heralded as quite good.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2009 at 21:22
Originally posted by tombirdman tombirdman wrote:

BanditoI am looking at putting it on a FN SCAR
      
I would like something that is good from 6 yards to 800 yards and I want accuracy at all ranges.
 
Almost to much to ask but I am sure there is something out there that would come close to fitting the bill.
 
Tom
 
6yrds  at 6 yrds you point shoot you don't look at the dot you look at the target up to say 25yrds you do the same thing.
 
I do understand the need for more magnification but if you have the money put the ACOG in your collection... You will not be disappointed. You might even get good enough to go the the 600yrd range and have paper plate size groups...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2009 at 21:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kavall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2009 at 21:59
I would steer someone away from an ACOG because it's magnification is too strong in real close conditions. And it's magnification is a bit weak for real long conditions. At 50-300 yards I'm not sure I would want anything else. It's a great optic. His range is too broad for one optic. I would parrot the quality scope with a reflex sight mounted off the scope body. That or detachable scope/reflex combo, which would be more streamlined but you have extra bits to keep track of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2009 at 22:14
I again would reply that a Doctor mount reflex could be  used if you thought you would need it for CQ but I would not want to say they work for daily use and abuse.  I will shut up now as I am seemingly just not qualified on this.  Maybe when I get more post and can earn rank here in the OT.  I am not trying to be sarcastic but I have responded  to the original Users post with options and others PM's about the .308 and my  "limited" experience in taking targets from 6-800yrds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2009 at 22:27
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

I again would reply that a Doctor mount reflex could be  used if you thought you would need it for CQ but I would not want to say they work for daily use and abuse.  I will shut up now as I am seemingly just not qualified on this.  Maybe when I get more post and can earn rank here in the OT.  I am not trying to be sarcastic but I have responded  to the original Users post with options and others PM's about the .308 and my  "limited" experience in taking targets from 6-800yrds.
 
C'mon 338. Your comments on this are HIGHLY respected. You are in the field using it, doing it... all honors, kudos, respect to you.  I've played around with some ACOG's, but never used one with "bad intent" and haven't used it enough to get a really good feel for it.  As I said, only play compared to your use.  My brief experience is it is a very good CQB optic.  The majority of posters here do not really have that "need" for one.  Based upon your comments, I am going to give it a strong look.  Thank you for your service and thank you for your candid comments.  I don't THINK any contradictory comments are based upon your lack of "creds", post time, etc. in the forum.  Perhaps only personal preference or lack of attention.  Stay safe over there.  God's speed to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sierra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 00:48
Originally posted by tombirdman tombirdman wrote:

What is the best, or among the best, military,leo, 223, light -  bullet drop compensated riflescope available.
 
I am now looking at ACOG, Elcan, Burris XTR.
 
What am I missing ?
 
Tom
 
 
Loco


What are you are missing:... Infantry School down in Ft. Benning, Georgia.....LOL  Learn to use "Iron Sites" first!!!

FYI:  Soldier's shoot with Military Spec. NATO 5.56 mm rounds, not civillian leo spec .223
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 01:23
Sierra  I think you nailed it.  Nothing really does a good job from 6 yds to 800 yds with a .223   (5.56mm).  Which is why I asked early on how the scope would be used and if he was Mil LE or Civ.  I suspect he is civilian desiring a nice scope for a rifle that he will take out and play with a little on the range and possibly hunt varmits or plink with and use for home defense if the red hoard comes over the hill.   I'm guessing price range to be under $1000.    Based on the idea that it will likely be used on the 100 and 200 yd range more than any other actual use I think a traditional optic with tactical knobs like the 3-9x42 Super Sniper is the best choice to achieve all around enjoyment and be able to dial in correction for extended distances probably out to a maximum of 600 yds with a 77 gr bullet. Past that is way too hopeful for anyone but the most experienced shooters.  The .223 is a truely pathetic little cartridge if you look at the energy it retains at distance and the balistic coefficient is not that great either both of which are important in long range use.   338 is obviously quite fond of the ACOG and they are worth their weight in gold in a fire fight which I dont forsee this guy ever being in.  The balistic reticles are perfectly matched to military ammo but civilians feed a wide variety of cartridges into their rifles so results will vary.  I   really like an ACOG as you dont have to turn it on, but I'm thinking this guy is better off with a scope with tactical / target knobs to play with even a 10x42 Super Sniper would let him play with it on the range and hunt it with significant accuracy.  If the rifle was for Police or Military Use illumination would be more important but civilians dont usually shoot at night  except to hunt preditors and hogs.  A traditional optic with a red dot riding piggy back makes some sense but if you cant point and hit stuff at 6 yds you need to buy a laser and attach that also.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kavall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 02:07
338Lapuaslap, we have been bouncing pm's back and forth and I hope you didn't take was I was saying as putting down your choices or dismissing your opinion as someone who didn't know what they were talking about. I completely understand where you are coming from and don't really disagree with it. I just have a personal preference to have some sort of aiming reference at close distances. I also have an exceptionally fond opinion on reflex sights for such purposes. In true combat conditions where gear is going to get beaten and repair/replacement is like seeing a unicorn. I would ditch a reflex in a hurry. Also let's be honest. 800 yards with 5.56 is fine for punching paper, but you are looking for some really lucky shots to get kills at that range. The accuracy exists, but the energy really left the building.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 13:09

MK262 MOD02 PROFILE:

 
556 nato MK262 MOD02
 Altitude        : 0 ft         Temperature      : 100  °F    
 Bullet Weight   : 77 gr        BC               : 0.35       
 Xwind Speed     : 10 mph       Xwind Angle      : 90 °       
 Muzzle Velocity : 2800 fps     Zero Range       : 100 yards  
 Target Speed    : 4 mph        Angle            : 0.0 degrees
 
    Range   Height    Hmils     Wind    Wmils      Vel   Energy      TOF     Lead  LClicks         
  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------  -------         
        0    -1.50      0.0      0.0      0.0   2800.0   1340.3    0.000      0.0      0.0
       25    -0.69     -0.8      0.0      0.0   2761.1   1303.3    0.027      0.9      1.0
       50    -0.16     -0.1      0.1      0.1   2722.4   1267.0    0.054      1.8      1.0
       75     0.07      0.0      0.3      0.1   2683.9   1231.5    0.082      2.7      1.0
      100     0.00      0.0      0.5      0.2   2645.6   1196.6    0.110      3.6      1.0
      125    -0.38     -0.1      0.9      0.2   2607.6   1162.5    0.139      4.5      1.0
      150    -1.08     -0.2      1.2      0.2   2569.8   1129.0    0.168      5.5      1.0
      175    -2.11     -0.3      1.7      0.3   2532.2   1096.2    0.197      6.5      1.0
      200    -3.48     -0.5      2.2      0.3   2494.9   1064.1    0.227      7.4      1.0
      225    -5.19     -0.6      2.9      0.4   2457.8   1032.7    0.257      8.4      1.0
      250    -7.27     -0.8      3.5      0.4   2420.9   1002.0    0.288      9.4      1.0
      275    -9.72     -1.0      4.3      0.4   2384.3    971.9    0.319     10.4      1.1
      300   -12.55     -1.2      5.2      0.5   2347.9    942.4    0.351     11.5      1.1
      325   -15.78     -1.3      6.1      0.5   2311.7    913.6    0.383     12.5      1.1
      350   -19.41     -1.5      7.2      0.6   2275.8    885.4    0.416     13.6      1.1
      375   -23.46     -1.7      8.3      0.6   2240.1    857.9    0.449     14.7      1.1
      400   -27.95     -1.9      9.5      0.7   2204.6    830.9    0.483     15.8      1.1
      425   -32.88     -2.1     10.9      0.7   2169.4    804.6    0.517     16.9      1.1
      450   -38.28     -2.4     12.3      0.8   2134.4    778.8    0.552     18.1      1.1
      475   -44.15     -2.6     13.8      0.8   2099.6    753.7    0.587     19.2      1.1
      500   -50.51     -2.8     15.4      0.9   2065.1    729.1    0.623     20.4      1.1
      525   -57.39     -3.0     17.2      0.9   2030.8    705.1    0.660     21.6      1.1
      550   -64.79     -3.3     19.0    &n
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 13:10
sp errors sorry was in a hurry...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kavall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 16:11
I think we crossed some wires, again there. I wasn't saying it couldn't kill at 800 meters, it's just marginal. And with a well made rifle the accuracy is there. Hell 1000 meters at Perry proves that. Though I will also readily admit, I didn't realize the 262 had quite that much energy at extended ranges.
 
As for the effectiveness of 9mm. It's the caliber I CCW. It's my wife's nightstand caliber. But if I could conceal .45 ACP comfortably, I would. But to be perfectly honest, if I could get a 12ga handgun that was compact, light weight, and had the recoil of 9mm.,I'd carry that. My point is everything comes with compromises. That's actually my entire point of all my posts in this thread, you take what best suits many variables.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kavall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 16:19
One last thing as I'm apparently too stupid to shut up. 338Lapuaslap, I'm not even remotely trying to contradict what you are saying, you are right. I just think there are more optimal choices at those distances and better options outside of combat situations. In combat, you use what you have and do it to the best that your abilities and the situation allows. Now this was a thread about a recommendation for a scope, so I'm going to shut up now. (And I blame myself for this getting so off topic.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 18:23
The 77 gr is quite an improvement over the green tip 62 gr.
Balastics -- for Bagdad current temp & elevation.
Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer: Sierra Description: HPBT MatchKing™
Caliber: 0.224 in Weight: 77.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficients: 0.343 [0-1800], 0.362 [1800-2500], 0.362 [2500-5000] G1
Muzzle Velocity: 2750.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft
Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg
Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 10.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Temperature: 70.0 °F Pressure: 29.97 in Hg
Humidity: 56.0 % Altitude: 134.0 ft Bagdad
Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 1.124 mil Windage: 0.000 mil
Atmospheric Density: 0.07425 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1128.3 ft/s
Maximum PBR: 296 m Maximum PBR Zero: 252 m
Range of Maximum Height: 140 m Energy at Maximum PBR: 691.3 ft•lbs
Sectional Density: 0.219 lb/in² Chart is in     meters
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(m) (mil) (MOA) (mil) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (mil) (MOA)
0 *** *** *** *** 2758.4 2.445 1300.7 0.000 *** ***
50 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.5 2622.7 2.325 1175.9 0.061 5.5 18.7
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.3 1.0 2491.0 2.208 1060.8 0.125 5.6 19.2
150 -0.3 -1.0 0.4 1.5 2363.2 2.095 954.7 0.193 5.7 19.8
200 -0.7 -2.3 0.6 2.0 2239.0 1.984 857.0 0.264 5.9 20.3
250 -1.1 -3.8 0.8 2.6 2118.5 1.878 767.2 0.339 6.1 20.9
300 -1.6 -5.5 0.9 3.2 2001.8 1.774 685.0 0.419 6.2 21.5
350 -2.1 -7.3 1.1 3.8 1889.1 1.674 610.1 0.503 6.4 22.1
400 -2.7 -9.3

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 18:46
 77 gr SMK  2800FPS
Range
yds
Path
in
ComeUp
clicks
Velocity
fps
Energy
ft/lbs
Momentum
lb ft/s
ToF
sec
Windage
in
Windage
clicks
Optimal
Game WgtSad
Muzzle -1.5 Infinity 2800 1340 30.80 0.000 0.0 NaN 195
25 -0.7 10 2735 1279 30.09 0.027 0.1 1 182
50 -0.1 1 2671 1220 29.38 0.055 0.2 2 170
75 0.1 0 2608 1163 28.69 0.083 0.5 3 158
100 0.0 0 2547 1109 28.01 0.112 0.9 4 147
125 -0.4 1 2486 1056 27.34 0.142 1.5 4 137
150 -1.2 3 2425 1006 26.68 0.173 2.1 5 127
175 -2.3 5 2366 957 26.03 0.204 2.9 6 118
200 -3.9 7 2308 911 25.39 0.236 3.9 7 109
225 -5.8 10 2251 866 24.76 0.269 4.9 8 101
250 -8.2 13 2194 823 24.13 0.303 6.2 9 94
275 -11.0 15 2138 781 23.52 0.338 7.6 10 87
300 -14.3 18 2083 742 22.91 0.373 9.1 12 80
325 -18.1 21 2028 703 22.31 0.410 10.8 13 74
350 -22.4 24 1975 667 21.72 0.447 12.7 14 68
375 -27.3 28 1922 631 21.14 0.486 14.8 15 63
400 -32.8 31 1870 598 20.57 0.525 17.0 16 58
425 -38.9 35 1819 566 20.01 0.566 19.5 17 54
450 -45.6 39 1769 535 19.46 0.608 22.1 19 49
475 -53.1 43 1721 506 18.93 0.651 25.0 20 45
500 -61.3 47 1673 478 18.40 0.695 28.0 21 42
525 -70.2 51 1626 452 17.89 0.741 31.3 23 38
550 -80.0 56 1580 427 17.38 0.787 34.8 24 35
575 -90.7 60 1536 403 16.89 0.836 38.6 26 32
600 -102.2 65 1492

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2009 at 18:50
Where did you get those ballistics, 338?  There's something messed up with them.  You need to have some altitude and/or 120+ degrees for that bullet to remain supersonic to 900 yds.  You're showing it over 1400 fps at 1000 yds.  Something isn't right.

I know the the 5.56 is used at 1000 yds in competition, but mostly with 80-90 bullets that are singly loaded which I don't think fits with the OP's application. 

I'm not trying to be a downer, just trying to keep the OP's expectations realistic.

ILya, do let us know what you think of that 1-10.  I could see myself really liking one of those.


Edited by Jon A - October/25/2009 at 18:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 00:13
Yes, I know which bullet he was talking about.  I've used it.  I hope that chart wasn't military issued because it's wrong.

The MK262 is definitely hotter than most civilian ammo--more than 50 fps.  I don't know if BH uses a 20" or 24" for their advertised velocities, but the civilian stuff only chronographs 2550 out of my 16".  I believe this is so that it will be safe when fired from a .223 Remington chamber, which you wouldn't want to try with real MK262.

Anyway, that's another subject but one that's worth mentioning since the stuff is nearly impossible for civilians to get their hands on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2009 at 16:26
I dont have the issued chart for the MK262 but you are  probably right from the balistic calculators I plugged the info into there does seem to be a lot of variation especilally in energy at extended distances.
 
I'm checking on it.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - October/26/2009 at 16:46

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tombirdman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/27/2009 at 15:55
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

You are missing the information that will allow us to answer your question.
 
What Rifle  bolt action or AR or ?      What distance and type of engagement, are you police or military or civilian.  What Price Range.
 
What makes for a great entry weapon optic for a tactical team is not the same as what makes for a great sniper scope.  What is right for home defense may not be the best choice for a patrol rilfe in a squad car. 
 
You mention bullet drop compensated so are you looking for a balistic reticle, or for tactical knobs to dial in correction.   Do you understand that variable power second focal plane scopes with balistic reticles only work for hold over at the highest power.   Do you know the trajectory of the particular bullet you wish to use?
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