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What about the Duel Dove Tail Mounts?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 20:58
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Well short and sweet who makes the best holding ring set for a sporting rifle. After reading the in depth post on proper ring alignment I would lean towards the Burris signature rings with their insert kit.

I don't want anything bigger or bulkier than I have to too get a good secure hold. I really like the clean look of the Leupold duel dove tails. Or the Burris two dove tail system that I have yet to try.

What is the opinion of the pros on this sort of mounting system are they considered to be a solid and durable mount. Can you get the Burris system with the ring inserts like signature rings offer? Are the available with 20 MOA bases?     
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 22:12
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
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Howdy REP,
I'm just some guy and not a pro, but I think you are on to a good thing with the Burris Signature rings.
I'm not too keen on their clamp- on Signature Zee mount with it's wimpy- looking slot head screw, but there are reports in this forum of the mount holding up to a .50 BMG.
All that I've used have worked well and not slipped and have never marred a scope. The clamp-on rings are not  easily detachable, ala Weaver mounts, as the metal of the ring/mount is bent over to meet the base, rather than having a removable side piece. You can get them off once mounted, but it takes some doing.

You can crank in quite a lot of elevation with their Pos-Align inserts. The .005" insert moves your aiming point 5" at 100yards and Burris makes a .010" and a .020" insert, so you have a wide range of pre-set elevations or windage corrections available. That's a neat trick.

Dual dovetail- style mounts are very solid, but difficult to get right. The Signature inserts would negate any alignment problems of normal dual-d's.
Others have said that dual dovetails get a little worn/loose after you dismount/remount them some number of times, but why should you have to do that?
Besides, isn't that what peening is for?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 22:24
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Dual dovetail mounts are very solid; much stronger than the typical front dovetail / rear windage screw arrangement.  This is obviously intended as a permanent mount solution, not one you will periodically remove and remount.  The only disadvantage to the DD mounts is they have no windage adjustability, so if the bases don't mount up to your receiver with pretty close alignment, the rings will be misaligned and will need to be lapped.  The Burris Signature rings remedy this problem, though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 22:56
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I can see no true advantage with the dual dovetail system. It is near impossible to get aligned perfectly. The dual dovetail will have to be lapped to fit unless using the Signature rings. With the standard mount you can adjust windage to keep the reticle in the center of the scope.  This will increase the amount of elevation available over a miss aligned scope. The Burris Signature rings will take most of the error out of the dual dovetail system yet is is still a flawed concept. The Signature rings will help in many ways. They will reduce the effect of misaligned rings. At the same time increase the amount of area gripped by the rings. This spreads the gripping force over a larger area to give more grip with less chance to damage the scope. To me the dual dovetail 2 piece is probably the most ill conceived mount there is. IMO.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 23:13
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I lap all horizontally split rings anyway, so I see advantages to the DD system -- simplicity, foolproofness, clean appearance, and great strength.  I initially align the front and back rings of this design with my steel lapping rod.  If you think about it, the DD system is no more problematic with alignment than any other 2 piece mount base system that doesn't have windage adjustment (i.e. Talley, Warne, and any 2 piece Picatinny style) because part of the misalignment is inherent with the bases themselves.  It's difficult to get perfect alignment between 2 bases on a radiused receiver top using socket head cap screws in counterbored screw holes that have clearance for the screws.  Consequently, there is too much potential for radial misalignment between the front and rear base.  If you use the Signature rings, you eliminate any misalignment stress on the scope tube, but it doesn't always correct for the need to use excess windage adjustment in the scope... nor does any other 2 piece base mount without provisions for windage adjustment.  

Edited by RifleDude - July/26/2010 at 23:16
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 01:59
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Dual dovetails are good mounts. If the reciever is out of alignment, blame the rifle, not the mounts.
I have mounted two Sako's with Leupold dovetails. Clean, neat and correctly aligned. All I needed to do was to dial in correct elevation.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 03:15
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Honestly, I am not real big on dual dovetail mounts, but that is largely personal preference.  I am sufficiently paranoid to usually have a couple of scopes set up for every rifle (that is also an artefact of having more scopes than scopable rifles), so I have settled down on Weaver/Picatinny rings since they are easy to detach and reattach with reasonable return to zero.

As for Burris Signature rings, I have used their Signature Zee (weaver-style) rings with good success for some time, especially in situations when the base is misaligned and I need to dial in some adjustment with the rings.

ILya

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 09:48
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Thanks for the great information;

I have used Leupold in the DD configuration a few times over the years and really like them. But after joining this forum I find it a great resource to expose possible experienced design flaws or learn of new and improved offerings.

But just when you think its over;
what is the over all opinion of two pc VS. one pc. bases with these DD systems. I would prefer not to obstruct access to the magazine or bolt area. Speedy

 

 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 09:51
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i wasnt thinking when i bought the rings and bases for my .375 H&H and bought leupold dd's so far they have held up fine. if i had it to do over again i would have used a weaver style. i really like burris's rings they work pretty well for me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 09:53
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You have recieved varied views from respected citizens of the OT World. Some like DD's, others do not.
I am afraid you will have to weigh the words of the learned ones and see which way the scale tips!!!!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 13:59
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REP,
By their nature, 1- pc. bases will obscure the receiver port a bit. Some designs are cut away sufficiently to not be a problem, while the 'tactical' bases often don't have machined cut outs. Of course, tactical bases won't be dual- dovetail...
If you are considering 1-piece bases, you might also look at the Dednutz brand 1-pc. ring/base. I haven't used them myself, but have heard no negatives and they are supposedly very well machined to prevent marring the scope.
The set I've seen looked well made and was a good looking design.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 14:23
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A 1-piece base design has the potential for better ring alignment since the mounting surfaces for the rings are all machined in the same setup in a single piece of material and there's no way the front and rear ring mount seats can be rotated even slightly out of alignment with each other. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 16:09
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On hunting rigs the Burris Dual Dovetail base and the Burris Signature rings are my favorite setup so I use that system whenever I can. 
 
The places where I could not use them would include; wanting to use rings shorter than medium height, because the Signature rings do not come lower than that, or needing a mounting position that cannot be obtained using those components.
 
If I could not use Signature rings I would definitely lap the rings.
 
Burris bases are better looking to me than Leupold bases because they are radiused.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 17:17
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Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

REP,
... If you are considering 1-piece bases, you might also look at the Dednutz brand 1-pc. ring/base. I haven't used them myself, but have heard no negatives and they are supposedly very well machined to prevent marring the scope.
The set I've seen looked well made and was a good looking design.
 
I have two sets of DNZ Game Reaper mounts that I have been using for about a year.  Both are on Remington 700 actions; a 270 WSM and a 35 Whelen.  They mounted on the recievers without problems, and no lapping was required. 
 
During the past year, I have put about 500 rounds through the 35 Whelen.  About 50% of them have been 225 gr partitions with a MV of about 2650 ft/sec, producing a recoil energy of about 30 ft-lbs.  The rifle has a 1.8-5.5X38 Conquest scope that weighs 18 oz on it.  The rings are low.  So far, the setup is very stable. 
 
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 17:37
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I have installed the DD mounts on 3 of my rifles. Never had any issues with alignment (although I can see how you could). Never liked the hollowed out windage screws. They always seem to warp when you tighten them and don't provide as strong of a mount as the DDs. Don't own but have seen the DNZ stuff and it looks tough. Talley makes similar set-ups.
RK
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2010 at 18:11
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Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

REP,
By their nature, 1- pc. bases will obscure the receiver port a bit. Some designs are cut away sufficiently to not be a problem, while the 'tactical' bases often don't have machined cut outs. Of course, tactical bases won't be dual- dovetail...
If you are considering 1-piece bases, you might also look at the Dednutz brand 1-pc. ring/base. I haven't used them myself, but have heard no negatives and they are supposedly very well machined to prevent marring the scope.
The set I've seen looked well made and was a good looking design.


I actually talked with those guy at Dednutz about their offerings. They were very helpful in providing information. I like the concept and it perplexes me why more manufactures don't have similar offerings. If memory serves I think they told me that they are going to be offering a tactical line with two screw caps and 20moa configurations. I'll have to follow up on them before making a take the plunge. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2010 at 07:53
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I have 3 sets of DD mount/rings in use all on rifles with a good bit of recoil.  No alignment issues or other problems on any of the three.  2 Rem. 700 Classics (.35 Whelen and 8mm Rem. Mag.) the other a S&W (Howa) 1500 rebarreled to .338-06.  Had problems with the std. Leupy mounts/bases on the Whelen and went to the DD's.  Went with DD's from the start on the others.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2010 at 08:16
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strength issues etc. always get lost on rings and bases, and the screws are forgotten (the weakest link) -- a big advantage to tactical mts. are the use of heavier 8-40 screws for recoil -- if you think that will be a problem. Also take a look at leupolds 6-48 shoulder screws which are also better than standard.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2010 at 20:21
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I personnally believe in DD mounts with the Burris signature rings. I don't like the system of windage screws and the inherrent weaknesses associated with them.
As far as the windage alignment issue I have solved this with the following process.
 
First I mount the rifle in a work vice making sure to level the action by the bolt guides in the receiver, this is the only true way to properly level the action. I then look through the bore of the rifle and line it up on a plumb line hanging 12 yards away inside of my house.
I have designed my own tool that a machinist made for me. Imagine a one inch dimeter bar about seven inches long (like a scope tube) this bar also has a longitudinal .25 cal hole going all the way through it, this hole is machined perfectly concentric with the OD of the bar. This bar also has vertical slots cut out of it to allow me to tighten and loosen the base bolts while I am effecting the alignment process.
So with my Burris signature rings and bases attached to this bar with the ring bolts somewhat loose and the outside of the "O" inserts lubed to allow them to gimbal inside the rings, I bolt the bases to the receiver, the vertical slots in this tool bar allow me to tighten and loosen the torqx screws in the bases while the bar is in the rings.
While looking through the longitudinal bore hole of this tool bar I attempt to line it up so that the plumb line I have hanging in the distance is dropping through the center of the bore hole of this tool bar just like I have it dropping through the center of the rifle bore. What allows me to make this happen is the inherrant play that is around the torqx screws as they pass through holes in the basses.
After I have wiggled things around to get my tool bore hole aligned so that the plumb line drops through the center  of the tool bore just like it does with the rifle bore I tighten the ring bolts up, this way  the tool will not move around in the rings. I then remove the the tool with the rings and basses still attached. I next cut some grroves in the undersides of the basses to create "footer" grooves so that the Devcon 10110 has a place to grab hold of instead of a paper thin layer between the basses and the reciever like everyone else does.
I then lay a piece of sand paper on top of the reciever grit side up and lap the underside of the basses back and forth to scuff and clean off any burrs created by cutting the footer grooves in the undersides of the basses.
I then treat the reciever with two coats of Kiwi neutral shoe polish.
I apply some Devcon to the under sides of the basses and bolt the entire assembly back in place while observing the plumb line to be hanging through the center of the tool bar while it is still attached to rings, just like it is hanging through the center of the rifle bore. 
Once the Devcon has cured I now can take the tool bar out of the rings and mount my scope.
This tool I have designed with  with the above stated process has resulted in some amazing windage alignment results at the 100 yard rifle range. I will try to get a picture up of this tool on this forum if anyone wants to see it. I hope my above explanation is inderstandable.  Thanks for reading this rather long post.
 
Charlie
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About 2/3 of my mounts are DD like the 300 WBY pictured. I do use alighnment rods and hand lap the rings to ensure complete contact . They have been extremely tough, and I like the look better than Weaver and one piece mounts ( although they have their place and I have a few of each) . To each his own ...

Edited by martin3175 - July/28/2010 at 21:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2010 at 22:08
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Originally posted by Harriershot Harriershot wrote:

I personnally believe in DD mounts with the Burris signature rings. I don't like the system of windage screws and the inherrent weaknesses associated with them.
As far as the windage alignment issue I have solved this with the following process.
 
First I mount the rifle in a work vice making sure to level the action by the bolt guides in the receiver, this is the only true way to properly level the action. I then look through the bore of the rifle and line it up on a plumb line hanging 12 yards away inside of my house.
I have designed my own tool that a machinist made for me. Imagine a one inch dimeter bar about seven inches long (like a scope tube) this bar also has a longitudinal .25 cal hole going all the way through it, this hole is machined perfectly concentric with the OD of the bar. This bar also has vertical slots cut out of it to allow me to tighten and loosen the base bolts while I am effecting the alignment process.
So with my Burris signature rings and bases attached to this bar with the ring bolts somewhat loose and the outside of the "O" inserts lubed to allow them to gimbal inside the rings, I bolt the bases to the receiver, the vertical slots in this tool bar allow me to tighten and loosen the torqx screws in the bases while the bar is in the rings.
While looking through the longitudinal bore hole of this tool bar I attempt to line it up so that the plumb line I have hanging in the distance is dropping through the center of the bore hole of this tool bar just like I have it dropping through the center of the rifle bore. What allows me to make this happen is the inherrant play that is around the torqx screws as they pass through holes in the basses.
After I have wiggled things around to get my tool bore hole aligned so that the plumb line drops through the center  of the tool bore just like it does with the rifle bore I tighten the ring bolts up, this way  the tool will not move around in the rings. I then remove the the tool with the rings and basses still attached. I next cut some grroves in the undersides of the basses to create "footer" grooves so that the Devcon 10110 has a place to grab hold of instead of a paper thin layer between the basses and the reciever like everyone else does.
I then lay a piece of sand paper on top of the reciever grit side up and lap the underside of the basses back and forth to scuff and clean off any burrs created by cutting the footer grooves in the undersides of the basses.
I then treat the reciever with two coats of Kiwi neutral shoe polish.
I apply some Devcon to the under sides of the basses and bolt the entire assembly back in place while observing the plumb line to be hanging through the center of the tool bar while it is still attached to rings, just like it is hanging through the center of the rifle bore. 
Once the Devcon has cured I now can take the tool bar out of the rings and mount my scope.
This tool I have designed with  with the above stated process has resulted in some amazing windage alignment results at the 100 yard rifle range. I will try to get a picture up of this tool on this forum if anyone wants to see it. I hope my above explanation is inderstandable.  Thanks for reading this rather long post.
 
Charlie



WOW that is devotion!! I would be interested in seeing the whole rig and process.
Thanks for going to the trouble of such an in depth post. The plum bob line is a neat approach.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2010 at 22:22
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Originally posted by martin3175 martin3175 wrote:

About 2/3 of my mounts are DD like the 300 WBY pictured. I do use alighnment rods and hand lap the rings to ensure complete contact . They have been extremely tough, and I like the look better than Weaver and one piece mounts ( although they have their place and I have a few of each) . To each his own ...


Nice rig; I have enjoyed your in put on this matter. I looked today for the rings and basses but did not find the signature rings in the DD configuration; but too I checked only at SWFA and not the Burris sight. If anyone happened to have part numbers I think med height rings would work I found the bases. The rig is a mod.16 weather worrier short action in 308 win. I will be mounting a 2002 mod. Veri-X III on it while I save for my Zeiss or Z6.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/29/2010 at 10:00
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http://swfa.com/Burris-Signature-Rings-C633.aspx

Its a sub menu
 

The gun on the left is a Model 70 and on the right a Kimber Montana, both Long Actions. I used the Leupold bases on both in part because Burris doesn't make them for the Kimber (or didn't then) and I like the looks of them a little better. Those are Burris Signature 30MM D/D rings, No laping required but I do try to allign them as close as possible first.



Edited by biggreen747 - July/29/2010 at 10:06
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/29/2010 at 13:51
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Originally posted by biggreen747 biggreen747 wrote:

http://swfa.com/Burris-Signature-Rings-C633.aspx

Its a sub menu
 

The gun on the left is a Model 70 and on the right a Kimber Montana, both Long Actions. I used the Leupold bases on both in part because Burris doesn't make them for the Kimber (or didn't then) and I like the looks of them a little better. Those are Burris Signature 30MM D/D rings, No laping required but I do try to allign them as close as possible first.



Nice rigs I have had my eye on just that Kimber for sometime I wont it in a 7mm-08 as a nice do all field rifle. I called and talked to a nice lady at SWFA today about the Burris DD rings and basses in the signature series. They had just what I needed but I haven't  made up my mind between these or the DNZ offerings yet.
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I have looked at the DNZ and they look like a nice setup, I just dont like rails in the way, personal preferance I guess. I see they do make them for my muzzleloader so I may have to give them a try on it.
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