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Western hunters (elk & Mule Deer)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2007 at 11:03
brandon327 View Drop Down
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What is the average shot distance? I am looking at buying a new scope and i am trying to decide if i need to get  a Long Range Duplex or regular duplex. I am planning a trip out west and i want to be prepared. The average shot at home is probally 100 to 200 yards. We have some that are about 500 but i would rarely take those unless it was a huge buck. I am just afraid that if i get the LR Duplex that all those lines may get confusing on a quick shot and cause a miss.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2007 at 11:15
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Some shots are gonna be requisite of the LR, I would suggest this reticle, and zero for 250-300 yrds. That should help eliminate some of your guess work, then practice at varying distances to shore up operator err.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2007 at 11:21
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Are you suggesting Long Range Duplex recticle or the regular Duplex Recticle?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2007 at 11:26
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I'd get the LR. for that type of hunting, it will help. Some people are fine with the duplex, and adjust the elev, or can comp in other ways, knowing at what range the thick post is on the kill, etc.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2007 at 19:13
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Originally posted by brandon327 brandon327 wrote:

What is the average shot distance? I am looking at buying a new scope and i am trying to decide if i need to get  a Long Range Duplex or regular duplex. I am planning a trip out west and i want to be prepared. The average shot at home is probally 100 to 200 yards. We have some that are about 500 but i would rarely take those unless it was a huge buck. I am just afraid that if i get the LR Duplex that all those lines may get confusing on a quick shot and cause a miss.
The "average shot distance" is completely irrelevent. The only shots you take are the ones you know you can nail, whether it's 50 yards or 450. The size of the animal or it's trophy status are likewise irrelevant. By your post, you imply that it's okay to risk wounding a huge buck, but not an average one? I know I'm going to regret posting this, as I sound like an ass, but if my words are untrue, please shoot me full of holes....I apologize in advance for hammering on you, but thousands think like that and I'm getting sick of cutting blood trails.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2007 at 23:27
brandon327 View Drop Down
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The average shot distance is relevant when choosing a reticle. Because at longer distance it could elimnate the some of the error in trying to calculate holdover. For example if the avergae shot is 200 yards there is not need for a LR duplex recticle.

 

I am not implying that it is ok to risk wouding a buck. I would never take a shot unless i was comfortable with it. And by the way we only shoot trophy bucks not average and why would anyone no matter how much of a crack shot they are take a doe at that far.

 

By the way for all you know i could be a crack shot at 500 or 600 yards.

 

Just curious what is cutting blood trails?



Edited by brandon327
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2007 at 23:56
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Lets see the last couple shots that come to mind have been around 250 and in based on friends and family that have hunted mule deer and elk this past year.

 

As far as this topic straying a bit off with ethical shots.  Well maybe its the bow hunter in me but I believe that anything over 300 yards is (a) very difficult for the average shooter and (b) more sniping then hunting.  I like the idea of "hunting" and by that I mean seening something and starting a stalk get as close as you can then take the shot.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

AC

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2007 at 00:33
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Originally posted by broadfoot broadfoot wrote:

+10 to RONK!
Don't believe the crap you hear about hunting out here. 300 yards is a long shot in NY or WY. Get a simple reticle
like a duplex and sight in so that your point blank range is 300 yards.
i.e any shot between 100 and 300 will land in an 18" circle or less.(depends on the cartridge ballistics) Then shoot
a lot at unknown ranges in that envelope from real world field positions not a bench rest. With one exception, all
the game I or my friends have killed has been well under 300 yards and that include a lot of Antelope. Spend the
money you save on a good rangefinder because things look a lot different in 5% humidity then 80%. NO 500 yard
shots please! There is not one rifleman in 100 who can pull them off everytime. If you can't...don't, we find far too
many gut shot, jaws blown off, three legged etc Deer, Antelope & Elk every spring that have dies a suffering death
or been pulled down and eaten while alive by out friend the wolves.


Not really sure where to start on this.  300 yards in wy or mt is not considered a long shot.  it is more considered to be an average shot, especially on antelope, elk, and the bigger smarter bucks.  to answer you range question, brandon, is rather hard, because it depends on the game, but i would say from my guiding experience with deer and elk, 200 - 300 yards is going to be average.  especially later in the year after the animals are a little more jumpy.  as for humidity, it won't make enough different in your bullets flight to worry about, and it won't make the animal look that much different.  at least not at typical ranges you will be shooting. 

ok, now i will agree with broadfoot on the 500 yard shots.  i think there are plenty of people that can do them if they have the time and right equipment.  i would not recommend those shots on elk.

if you use a regular plex reticle zeroed at 300 yards, you can shoot out to 400 yards.  if you want to shoot farther than 400, the consider a BDC reticle.  hope that helps you out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2007 at 10:47
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Two years ago I had a nice Buck in my sights.  He was about 300 yds away..... I didn't have a range finder but he was on the quarter mile fence line and I estimated I was @100 yds from the other end fence line.  I had a set of shooting sticks, so had a decent rest.  I was using my BAR 30-06 with a 3.5-10X50 Grand Slam.  I passed on the deer because I did not feel I could hold my rifle steady enough. 

 

If I were looking at an Elk or something of that size.... I probably would have made a different choice, but I'm not sure.   I watch alot of the "Outdoor Channel" and see hunters take long shots.  It seems to me that a high percentage of those kills,  the deer drops in their tracks.... which indicates to me they hit the spine.  This leads me to believe they didn't really hit where they were aiming and lucked out so to speak.

 

For me personaly....... I just can't see taking a shot farther than 300 yds on a Whitetail. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2007 at 17:01
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 Again, Brandon, I apologize for jumping down your throat, please don't take it personally, but it's been a lifelong persuit of mine to help instill in others a sense of what ethical hunting really entails, and what it does not. I was trying to take the opportunity to have you step back and realize what you were asking and what it really means to shoot at game animals at 500 yards, and how few truly legitimate reasons there are to do so, in most cases. In your opening post, you mention wanting to be prepared for your western hunt, and that is certainly commendable in and of itself.

 You are correct, for all I know you could be a crack shot at 500 or 600 yards. To answer your question, "cutting a blood trail" is simply a local term for coming across the trail of a wounded animal while hunting, or otherwise moving through the woods.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/07/2007 at 18:01
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Rather than an average or "typical" shot range, I found myself gearing up for the extreme.   I hunt east MT which is open country.   I use a 3-9X42 and generally use it cranked all the way up.   Over the last two seasons, filling a total of 9 tags, the longest shots were 230 yards and 322, both for pronghorn.  The longest shots on deer have been 200 yards.  Mule deer and white tails tend to be in the coulies or hanging around on the edges which obviates the need for long open field shots on them. 

 

Last year 230 yards seemed like a long shot to me.   I swapped out a 7mm-08 for a 270 WSM for this year's hunt.   Two hundred yards seems almost point blank with this rifle and cartridge.   The range of shot distances over the last two years is, from around 80, to the afformentioned 322.   I set around 335 yards as my limit.  That limit is based on MPBR for this set up using an 8 inch circle as the kill zone.   I can aim at it without adjustment and be assured the bullet will land inside that zone out to that range.   Provided I do my part, of course.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/07/2007 at 18:21
Tip69 View Drop Down
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JackG....what were the weather conditions when you did your MPBR test?  Was there any wind?  It sounds like a pretty decent test!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/07/2007 at 22:19
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I worked it out theoretically.    See my post on Trajectory.  The guys on here provided a lot of very useful information. 

 

The practical test was a pronghorn at about 322 yards. The angle was slightly up slope.   The animal was standing broadside.  I had a solid rest and held right on the midline with no correction for elevation.   The bullet stuck about 2" below the midline.  I also made shots with the same set up at just over 100 yards with the bullet striking a couple of inches above the midline.  

 

I had one clean miss at a shorter range.  Dolphin suggested I simply tanked it, and I agree.   The followup shot was a clean kill.  

 

There is software to work out the MPBR.   It is is a function of BC, MV, bullet mass and diameter, kill zone diameter which is based on the size of the target animal, and a lot of other stuff.  You plug all that in and it tells you the max range at which the bullet will strike in that kill zone.  

 

Once you've cranked out an answer, then go a range and try it.  The concern I had was, I am sighted about 3" high at 100 yards.  That provides the MPBR of about 335 yards or so.  But at perhaps 125 yards, I shot cleanly over a mule deer.   A couple of other shots at that range had hit solidly in the higher chest, but this one never touched the animal.   That suggests I simply blew it on that one.   That's what my angst was about and prompted the post on trajectory.  

 

Anyway, that approach worked very well for me with the exception of the afformentioned shot.    I'll go to the range and do some more testing.  This time at around 300 yards and see what it's doing.  Also, I do the testing when it's calm and I've got a rock solid rest.  I want to learn about the load at than point and not about the the shooter.  That would be me.  Once I know what the rifle and cartridge will do, then I work on me. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2007 at 01:46
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A modern cartridge like a 270 or 30-06 works out very well with the 3" high at 100. Should allow hits out to 300
with no difficulty and no complex multi line scopes. Shoot at 100, 200, 300 & 400 so you are sure where your shot
will land and that you and your gun have the accuracy for each range. If you shoot several 100 rounds before
beginning the hunt you will have the confidence when the "big one" walks out. Best of luck!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2007 at 05:21
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Originally posted by 30-06 forever 30-06 forever wrote:

A modern cartridge like a 270 or 30-06 works out very well with the 3" high at 100. Should allow hits out to 300
with no difficulty and no complex multi line scopes. Shoot at 100, 200, 300 & 400 so you are sure where your shot
will land and that you and your gun have the accuracy for each range. If you shoot several 100 rounds before
beginning the hunt you will have the confidence when the "big one" walks out. Best of luck!

Well said and welcome to O.T.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2007 at 15:46
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Forever There nothing is too complicated with as you say multiline scopes, use lowest line for farthest target, see no problem for me why complicated for you? you shoot 30-06 for deer at 300 yrds? shame you should be of self, 300 maybe good when sight right. Ciao
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2007 at 19:42
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UH OH!!!!!!...... Mr. "Skunk" is out of the cage again!.........Tell us sir! What exactly do you shoot? Rifle? Caliber? Scope? What game have you successfully killed?...........Tell us more about yourself!! Over here in America the correct spelling for scents is cents! Remove the "s"!!!!!!! With that spelling your 2 cents worth, is worth 0 cents!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2007 at 20:14
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 Anybody know the height of a skunk?  I need to plug that particular value it into my ballistics/trajectory program as one of the parameters...8 inches sound about right?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2007 at 19:01
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We don't waste bullets on skunks, they are too easy to hit with a truck. Crows have to eat too.
Wonder what he hunts in France? Pepe la Phew?
Guess he forgot all OUR soldiers that saved France's ass TWICE shooting the good old 30-06.
A Federal premium with the 150 accubond when sighted in at 200 is a whole 7" low at 300, only a frog could not
make that shot!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2007 at 19:34
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Pepe's been laying low today, Let's not provoke him. Yeah but we owed them from the Rev War, score's even now.

I'm Curious if ol Le Pew shoots a 270

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2007 at 19:43
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If PePe Le Pew does shoot a 270, he`ll score some BIG points with Pyro!!! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2007 at 11:04
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Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

If PePe Le Pew does shoot a 270, he`ll score some BIG points with Pyro!!! 

Pepe shoots 7-08 Mauser, Iron sights, Pepe have 270 with a Leupold, How many points is pyro, He a ten pointer?

 

Originally posted by 30-06 forever 30-06 forever wrote:

We don't waste bullets on skunks, they are too easy to hit with a truck. Crows have to eat too.
Wonder what he hunts in France? Pepe la Phew?
Guess he forgot all OUR soldiers that saved France's ass TWICE shooting the good old 30-06.
A Federal premium with the 150 accubond when sighted in at 200 is a whole 7" low at 300, only a frog could not
make that shot!

Pepe hunts 30-06 shooters that like federal premium 150 accubonds. Pepe never see a frog shoot a rifle.

 

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

UH OH!!!!!!...... Mr. "Skunk" is out of the cage again!.........Tell us sir! What exactly do you shoot? Rifle? Caliber? Scope? What game have you successfully killed?...........Tell us more about yourself!! Over here in America the correct spelling for scents is cents! Remove the "s"!!!!!!! With that spelling your 2 cents worth, is worth 0 cents!

Pepe no sleep in cage, and I be very great hunter, many 30-06 shooters on wall in Pepes cave.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2007 at 12:25
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Skunk!................So you don`t live in a cage? But in a cave instead?............Hey Pyro! There ya go! PePe Le Pew shoots a .270 with a Leupold too!!................ Have fun!!!!          
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2007 at 06:32
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i think its time to give the skunk an acetone injection 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2007 at 07:10
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i think its time to give the skunk an acetone injection 

You want to inject mois?, You strange Tenpointer, I know why you no like 270, Have close call one time ? I would miss you not. You want to be on my wall no? yes ?

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