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Warnes or Talleys ???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2007 at 10:01
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Hello everybody. I'm thinking about some bases and rings for my new set up ('06 mountain rifle) I have it narrowed down to Warnes or Talleys (posssibly the lightweight aluminum ones) Anyone care to chime in with their opinions or experiences with either of these fine products? Thank you so much, Bricat
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2007 at 11:51
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I have the Talley lightweights on a few rifles and they are holding up just fine. Fit and finish are as good as any other mounts I have owned. Being one piece also (my opinion) makes installation a bit easier with less to go wrong in the field (fewer components) .
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2007 at 13:42
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I have Talley QD's on several rifles and have never had a problem. They look similar to the Warne if you like the look. Others here have had good results with the Warne's, too.

I lean towards the Talley's because they are machined from bar stock.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2007 at 16:55
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I have both Talley and Warne mounts on several rifles.  I like both.  Of the two, I like the Talleys just a tad better, especially when you're talking about the QD versions.  The Talley has a more slender lever than the Warne QDs.  I also like the base design of the Talleys, with the integral shoulders the rings fit between.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2007 at 17:09
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I've never owned Talleys but really like my Warnes. 

 

Plus I think everyone is retarded but me, so you should consider that too.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2007 at 19:08
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I have never had a problem with my Warne rings or mounts 100 % reliable

 

Duce

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 17:46
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Owned many of both.  The Talley one piece are strong and reliably and are are a breeze to mount.  The Warnes are manufactured to perfection.  The QD Warnes allow placement of the arm in any position.  Since I have never purchased anybody else's QDs, I am not sure if that is standard.  I would never lap the Warne rings, they are perfection out of the pack, same with the Talley's.  Only problem with the Talley's, I called and asked for the right one piece set up for a Savage Model 40 and Gary figured it would be the same for the Model 12 rifles and guess what, at almost 42 dollars, it was not.  It was the model 93s  that was a match.  I am keeping them, because I am always buying rifles and have more of them and mounting hardware than more small gun shops do.  Your pick.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2007 at 15:30
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Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

The QD Warnes allow placement of the arm in any position.  Since I have never purchased anybody else's QDs, I am not sure if that is standard.  I would never lap the Warne rings, they are perfection out of the pack, same with the Talley's. 

 

No, I'm pretty sure the Warne QD levers are the only ones that can be repositioned once tightened.  Talley levers aren't designed to do that, but on the other hand, their levers are more slender and graceful looking and don't protrude as far from the side of the mount.  Both are good.

 

As for lapping... never say never.  Yes, both are well machined rings, but absolutely NOTHING is perfect, and such a goal is not physically possible.  Everything manufactured by human beings, even with the most state of the art CNC machines and tooling, has some design tolerances for dimensions, because every ring is designed to fit every base, and scope tube, and every base is designed to fit every rifle receiver it was designed for.  This means there has to be some allowable dimensional variation to accommodate the tolerance stackup inherent with every possible combination of scope and rifle the rings/bases will be mounted to or some will have fit problems.  In addition, it is not physically possible for ANY 2-piece base & rings to always line up exactly perfectly every single time, unless the mount system has some built-in compliance for misalignment.  You can often get away with this misalignment because the scope tube and the rings will flex some, but in many cases, not enough that it causes a problem.  In the case of vertically split rings, yes, they do self-align somewhat, but won't compensate for a rifle receiver whose mount holes are badly out of alignment.  This happens more often than you think.  In cases of gross misalignment, you have no choice but to either lap or ream the rings, redrill or mill out and threadmill the mount holes on the receiver, and/or switch to a design using the ring inserts.

 

Remember, it doesn't matter how near perfect a set of rings is machined, if the rifle's receiver holes are out of alignment, your rings will be out of alignment when mounted.  Lapping rings is one of only a few measures to correct for this.  And, I don't care what the ring manufacturers tell you.  If they say lapping is never needed, they are simply WRONG!  Unless, of course their rings are designed from the beginning to compensate for misalignment, which the vertically split rings aren't really designed to do.  Manufacturers are seldom going to tell you to do anything that alters their product in any way.  To do so gives the impression there's something wrong with their product, and they have no control over the competence of the person making the modification.



Edited by RifleDude
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/30/2007 at 12:56
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Ted and I have had this discussion on many occasions and we both differ on our opinions.  I have mounted hundreds of scopes and he has too, probably more than myself.  I have never had any problems, but have only used high quality mounts on high quality rifles that are not that old.  I have talked with the people at Warne and their competetive shooters do not lap their rings, which I believe says alot.  Now, on the other hand, I do not know how well they do.  CNC machining is quite precise and tolerances are very close.  Try balancing your rifle, by the barrel, tough to do, but can be done with a precise level, then, partially screw in the base screws for the scope and place a mini level on them.  If both are right on, at least you know that they are in direct line of the barrel, but not guarenteed to be centered.  Lapping cannot cure the later problem, only scope adjustment, or if way off, tapping and drilling new mounting holes.  Using cheap mounts, yes I would lap.  Burris inserts are made of a synthetic material.  You know what happens to a "synthetic" material over time, it deteriorates.  S&K and Conetrol mounts are great, but I would go bankrupt, putting them on every rifle that I own.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/30/2007 at 13:03
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The lever position is adjustable on my Talley QD's.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/30/2007 at 13:46
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

The lever position is adjustable on my Talley QD's.

 

Yes, it is, but not after tightening, unlike the Warne, which has a spring loaded lever that you can reposition without loosening the bolt.

 

Dolphin,

Just so you know where I'm coming from, if a set of scope rings is out of alignment with each other even as much as 0.001", I consider that a bad thing and will fix it so that I have the scope mounted as stress-free and close to center as possible, requiring the least amount of windage adjustment possible.  Even if they aren't techically misaligned, lapping gives more complete ring contact with the scope tube, which provides a more solid grip without leaving ring marks.  For most people, if you can mount the scope and get it zeroed, then the installation is good.  Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist, but that's not the case for me.  I look at it this way:  if 30 minutes of my time is all that separates an o.k. installation and a near perfect installation and the lapping results in a stress-free scope and more complete ring contact with the tube, I see that as a small price to pay for something that will be mounted permanently.  You only have to buy the lapping rod once, and it lasts forever and is pretty inexpensive.

 

Remember, for every etched in stone rule of thumb, you can always find exceptions, so it's not at all surprising to me that some people don't lap rings and have never had problems.  Or rather, the "problems" were not great enough that it worried them or that they noticed.  These aren't the folks I want doing work for me, though, nor is that a standard I would follow for my own work or work for someone else who trusts me to do a professional quality job for them.

 

As for the synthetic inserts, there's no reason to believe they won't last for the life of the rifle, since they're trapped inside the ring halves, not exposed to UV rays.  Plus, even in the event they did somehow deteriorate... so what, they're cheap, just replace them.  I know I've had rings with the inserts mounted on one of my rifles for 15 years or so with no problems.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/30/2007 at 14:41
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

The lever position is adjustable on my Talley QD's.

 

Yes, it is, but not after tightening, unlike the Warne, which has a spring loaded lever that you can reposition without loosening the bolt.

 

Dolphin,

Just so you know where I'm coming from, if a set of scope rings is out of alignment with each other even as much as 0.001", I consider that a bad thing and will fix it so that I have the scope mounted as stress-free and close to center as possible, requiring the least amount of windage adjustment possible.  Even if they aren't techically misaligned, lapping gives more complete ring contact with the scope tube, which provides a more solid grip without leaving ring marks.  For most people, if you can mount the scope and get it zeroed, then the installation is good.  Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist, but that's not the case for me.  I look at it this way:  if 30 minutes of my time is all that separates an o.k. installation and a near perfect installation and the lapping results in a stress-free scope and more complete ring contact with the tube, I see that as a small price to pay for something that will be mounted permanently.  You only have to buy the lapping rod once, and it lasts forever and is pretty inexpensive.

 

Remember, for every etched in stone rule of thumb, you can always find exceptions, so it's not at all surprising to me that some people don't lap rings and have never had problems.  Or rather, the "problems" were not great enough that it worried them or that they noticed.  These aren't the folks I want doing work for me, though, nor is that a standard I would follow for my own work or work for someone else who trusts me to do a professional quality job for them.

 

As for the synthetic inserts, there's no reason to believe they won't last for the life of the rifle, since they're trapped inside the ring halves, not exposed to UV rays.  Plus, even in the event they did somehow deteriorate... so what, they're cheap, just replace them.  I know I've had rings with the inserts mounted on one of my rifles for 15 years or so with no problems.

Ted, when it comes to perfection, I am the ultimate perfectionist, when it comes to mechanical objects.  Now, my office is another story, it is mess.  The stress applied to a rifle scope tube at such a short distance, as that of the distance of the two rings, when misaligned by 0.001" is going to be negligble and probably unmeasurble, even with a strain gauge applied to the scope.  The shorter the distance, i.e. the smaller the lever, the less the stress is going to be.  However, since I do not lap rings and I have two scopes to mount and I am going to use Warne QD rings on a Savage Model 40 to mount a Swift Premier 4-12 42mm AO scope, I am going to order a lapping kit from Brownells and see how long it takes me to remove enough surface material, so that the entire surface, has been, so to speak, re-surfaced.  Since, you have mounted both ways, I think this is fair.  Plus, I have always trusted your opinions.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/30/2007 at 15:32
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One question is, before I order the lapping kit is, how do we know the concentricity and the linear properties of the lapping bar are more precise than that of the rings?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/30/2007 at 16:37
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Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

One question is, before I order the lapping kit is, how do we know the concentricity and the linear properties of the lapping bar are more precise than that of the rings?

 

Because the bars are usually centerless ground, or if turned, are held to tolerances much tighter than the i.d. of the rings.  However, since you are covering the bar with lapping compound and moving it back and forth through the rings, the high spots on the bar are actually governing the finish lapped size, and it evens out the cut diameter.  Plus, you have a gap between the ring halves anyway that is taken up when you tighten them together.

 

I think you'll find that once you start lapping rings, you'll be alarmed at how much misalignment you actually have that you never noticed, as evidenced by the cleanup pattern developing on the i.d. of the rings during the lapping process.  It will literally open your eyes. 

 

A couple 0.001" may not seem like a big thing, but look at it this way... if you knew this amount of misalignment existed and you had the option of making the rings align near perfectly within a couple 0.0001" and it only took about 30 min. of your time to do... why wouldn't you do it, if you had the supplies to do so?  Even if a couple 0.001" misalignment had no noticeable affect on function of the scope, wouldn't you prefer to have more complete ring contact with the tube, and wouldn't you prefer to remove any sharp edges from the rings that could mar the tube finish?  Isn't less misalignment always better, and isn't it worth something to know without a doubt something is done right the first time and never worry about it again?

 

Not trying to pick on you in any way, bud.  I just wanted to explain why it's a mistake to assume that since you're using high quality rings that you'll never ever have a problem.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 06:14
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Part of the problem is mass manufactured receivers are drilled and tapped. You can not hold a precision location with screws. Not that I have seen bases located with dowels before, but this is the way to hold location with any type of fixture.

If you need more precision, lapping will help.

Doug

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 09:17
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Part of the problem is mass manufactured receivers are drilled and tapped. You can not hold a precision location with screws. Not that I have seen bases located with dowels before, but this is the way to hold location with any type of fixture.

If you need more precision, lapping will help.

Doug

 

Bingo.  Therein lies the problem, not to mention the normal variations in receiver and base mating surface radiuses, which aren't precisely fit to each other; they can't be.

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