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VX-7 Vs Kahles

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2008 at 21:57
jackG View Drop Down
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I stopped by Sportsmens Warehouse today.   They have some KX's on sale.  They had a 4-12X50, for $699.  Never having peering through one before I had the guy get out a VX-7 3.5 to 14X50, I think, so I could look at the two side by side.  There were several problems.  For one thing, the guy was a pistol shooter, and doesnt' do rifles at all.   That means he doesn't do rifle scopes.  The second thing is, he rated the Leupold rifle scopes, and this was a 30mm tube, as the best combination of quality, optics, features, durability, and warrantly, anywhere compared to any brand.   Which is fine, however, at one point he added, "I don't know anything about the Kahles."  Had he used scopes and known something about Kahles it would have helped a bit.  
 
I did get to peek through them.   The Leupold was pefectly focused.  The Kahles was not, and with the scope caps in place neither of us could  figure out how to correct that.   The glass was very bright and clear in both, but the lack of focus was a problem. 
 
The Luepold was $1600, or more than twice the Kahles.  Based on what I saw the glass brightness appeared comparable.   Without focus though, it was impossible to compare clarity.   The Leupold had a bunch of tricky features, sort of like the multizero, however those are things I'm not sure I've got much use for.   A pretty fruitless visit all in all.  I'll try again later when we can get them both focused.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 00:41
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Originally posted by jackG jackG wrote:

I did get to peek through them.   The Leupold was pefectly focused.  The Kahles was not, and with the scope caps in place neither of us could  figure out how to correct that.   The glass was very bright and clear in both, but the lack of focus was a problem. 
 
 
The Kahles has the typical fast focus style eyepiece, just like the VX-7.  Just pull the cap off the eyepiece then rotate the outer, leading edge of the eyepiece (focus ring) until it is focused.  If you are looking directly at the eyepiece lens, for my eyes, best focus occurs when the ring is turned 90-degrees clockwise so that the arrow indicator is in approx 3:00 position, pointing to the word "Kahles" on the side of the eyepiece.  Someone put the lens cap on the scope before focusing the eyepiece, and if it is the lens cap that normally comes with the Kahles, when it is in place, it grabs the eyepiece body pretty well, preventing you from rotating the focus ring. 


Edited by RifleDude - February/03/2008 at 00:49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 06:49
Ed Connelly View Drop Down
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(............I like lens caps.........when the rifle is in the back of the closet and will be there for the next seven months.....otherwise RIP 'EM OFF and throw them as far as you can out into the sagebrush and pick 'em up on the way home if you pass that way again.....Bucky    )   
 
[ I may have to change my name to CRANKY BUTT........HA!]    --EdBoo%20Hoo%20This
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 08:37
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You have pretty much summed up most folk's opinion on this forum with regards to Leupolds....... you have to pay way more to get comparable quality.  Too bad about the dumb-ass sells person.   Nothing worse than that IMO!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 10:22
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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beg to differ, tried a vx7, z6, and diavari on a m-4 type for about a 1000 rds of timed exercises, although the scopes are for hunting, several features quickly come to surface. The z-6 came in first in glass , last in  saddle features, leo, first in saddle features and was slightly behind the zeiss 3.5x10 in glass , zeiss was only slightly better in glass than the leo and the reticle an #8 wasn't as good as the B&C, which showed me at least the vx7 has came a long way, but zeiss behind in turret (saddle features). the two euros reflect the let somebody zero my scope philosphy or once set forget which in a way is good because they always build smaller adjustments and covers which some people like more (z6 tick marks  on the turret only go 1/2 way round the turret-probably not an issue with some, drives me nuts, and on this expensive of a scope no less). Currently kahles sale prices reflect a heck of deal, if future customer service isn't important (not saying it won't be just more uncertainty than leo).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 11:25
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I was in Dick and Jim C's store in Dundee, MI yesterday and could not help but look at some of these models. I haven't been able to use them outside like Dale, but the VX-7 didn't seem to be a whole lot different than the Kahles when it came to the glass, at least inside. As always the Leupold was a nicely proportioned scope and had "eye appeal". It's twice as much as the KX, too. I would get the KX before it in a minute.
BTW, the Z6 is real nice. Considering the magnification range and features it is fairly compact. I was able to look at a couple of Diavari's and came away very impressed with the Z6. All of the adjustments in both the Swarovski and Zeiss are smooth. I left very impessed with my in store look at the Z6.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 11:54
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One thing I really do like about the VX-7 is those pop-up turret caps that are integral with the adjustment dials.  I think that's a great idea!  Does the VX-7 have fixed or variable eye relief?  Given current competition, Leupold's refusal to design their scopes with fixed eye relief puzzles me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 11:59
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The VX-7 has variable eye relief.
I would not be without lense cap covers, Ed. That could change, but I still haven't showered with the 4200 to see if the Rainguard works.
 
Doug
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 12:17
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Oh, the Rainguard works....I had a 3200 a while back...and the VERY FIRST thing I did when I got through gawking at it in the living room was to stick it under the faucet in the kitchen to see the water run off!! HA!   I have lens caps...but they're a pain. I don't take them out into the real world........I shoot without them being anywhere near my person.   Wink
 
Rainguard is nice, but I wouldn't hesitate to get a regular scope. ( Unless I was deliberately going to go hunt on the Pacific Coast or Quebec or someplace like that--- in the bad rain.   Or East Texas, eh, RifleDude? )  Bandito                                                               --Ed ( Cussing)   HA! HA!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 12:23
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Oh, the Rainguard works....I had a 3200 a while back...and the VERY FIRST thing I did when I got through gawking at it in the living room was to stick it under the faucet in the kitchen to see the water run off!! HA!   I have lens caps...but they're a pain. I don't take them out into the real world........I shoot without them being anywhere near my person.   Wink
 
Rainguard is nice, but I wouldn't hesitate to get a regular scope. ( Unless I was deliberately going to go hunt on the Pacific Coast or Quebec or someplace like that--- in the bad rain.   Or East Texas, eh, RifleDude? )  Bandito                                                               --Ed ( Cussing)   HA! HA!
 
i agree i wouldnt let a lack of rainguard stop me from buying a good scope either, better glass easily out weighs water repelling coatings, buy butler creeks or something like that if water is an issue, for me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 12:31
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I beat myself up on which model to buy and luckily found a Z6 for $1400 OTD.  I have always used Leo, but IMO they still have a ways to go to match the quality of glass found in the Z6 and Zeiss Diavari models.  I felt it was a no brainer to go Z6 for the same money as a VX-7 and infact have ordered another one and hope to buy another when the budget permits or I sale my Diavari Classic. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 13:14
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z6 is tough to beat
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2008 at 19:50
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Okay.  I went back to SWH and had the counter buy pull the lens caps off the Kahles KX 4-12X50 scope.   I got a clear look through the glass.   To my eye, it is every bit as clear and crisp as the Leupold VX 7 3.5-14.   Bear in mind that it's indoors.  I was checking a stuffed elk and deer, under artificial light, and at fairly close range.  But if there is a difference, I can't see it.  The price is 699.  Not too bad.
 
I do have a couple of questions.   The eye relief appears to be less than say, my Sightron Sll, and examining specifications, it appears to be the same as a similar Swarovski.  What factors determine the eye relief?  The VX7 might have an edge there.  The eye  relief is a function of, what?  What factors determine that distance? 
 
The second quesiton relates to the field of vision.  Is the FOV a function of, or related to objective lens diameter.   For example, will a Kahles CL 4-12X52 have the same field of vision as the KX 4-12X50?  Or are they unrelated.   Thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2008 at 09:59
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You may wnt to consider a Kahles CL series scope over the KX. I just bought a 3x10 50mm and it is probably the best scope that I have owned. I believe the make a 4x12 52. With the CL you get an etched glass reticle and side focus. You will probably want the side focus parallax adjustment if you are shooting long distances. Shop around and you can find a great deal on one of these. Leupold glass doesn't compare to the glass in a number of scopes in my opinion and the higher end Leupolds (VX-7, VX-L, LPS) are way over priced.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2008 at 11:04
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Originally posted by jackG jackG wrote:

I do have a couple of questions.   The eye relief appears to be less than say, my Sightron Sll, and examining specifications, it appears to be the same as a similar Swarovski.  What factors determine the eye relief?  The VX7 might have an edge there.  The eye  relief is a function of, what?  What factors determine that distance? 
 
The second quesiton relates to the field of vision.  Is the FOV a function of, or related to objective lens diameter.   For example, will a Kahles CL 4-12X52 have the same field of vision as the KX 4-12X50?  Or are they unrelated.   Thanks.
 
Eye relief is influenced by the curvature of the eyepiece lenses and the focal lengths of the ocular lens group.  It is the result of an optical design tradeoff, striking a compromise between the magnification, field of view, and focal length of the optic.  Increasing magnification usually results in a reduction of FOV and ER, and increasing FOV usually results in a reduction of ER, unless compensation is made in the ocular lens design.  If you want a more detailed explanation, I would suggest contacting Koshkin, who posts on this forum.  He's our resident expert on optical design.
 
Also keep in mind that with the 2 scopes you're comparing, the Leupold has variable eye relief and the Kahles has fixed eye relief.  In other words, as you turn up the magnification on the Leupold, the ER decreases, whereas the ER remains constant on the Kahles regardless of magnification.  The fixed ER allows you to maintain the same position of your face against the stock of your rifle, which some prefer, me included.  It's difficult to judge how forgiving the ER of a scope will be without having it mounted on a rifle, but some scopes have more latitude for eye position behind the scope than others, despite their respective nominal ER numbers.  Lately, this has been described with the new vogue term "eye box."
 
FOV is not directly related to objective lens diameter in and of itself.  The objective diameter mainly influences light transmission and resolution.  FOV is mainly a function of eyepiece design.  However, the objective diameter can indirectly affect FOV.  A larger diameter objective usually comes with a more gradually curved lens surface and therefore a longer focal length, and longer focal lengths reduces the FOV.  Again, everything is a tradeoff in the design of an optic.  If you try to optimize one specification or optical characteristic, it usually comes at the expense of another specification or characteristic.
 
As for the 2 scopes you are comparing, the CL 4-12X52 has slightly larger FOV than the KX 4-12X50 (29.4' - 10' vs. 28.5' - 9.9'), which goes to show that overall optical design influences FOV rather than objective diameter.  Eye relief is identical between these two scopes, at 3.54".  Between the two, I'd probably go with the KX because it is less expensive, despite the CL's slightly better resolution.  There is very little difference optically between the two.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2008 at 11:05
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Actually, that's the scope I have in mind.  The Sightron is very good, particularly for the price. However, at the ranges I'm encountering, I'm looking for added magnification.  The 4-12X52 would accomplish that.  I'm also considering getting it from the Sample list.   A like-new unit can  be had for around 700.   I wanted to get a look at the Kahles glass.  Having seen that, the game is on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2008 at 11:58
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Jack....... you're learning.... and fast!  Smile
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