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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 15:00
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Has anyone gotten their hands on the new Vortex Razor HD Binos. I have a pair of Kaibabs and if they are anything like them I am sold. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 15:23
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I could be mistaken, but I don't believe the new Razor HD's are available for sale just yet.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 20:07
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Not on shelves yet.  No place I've looked at (including SWFA) lists them as in stock.
 
If they improved the Razor HD a lot over the Viper HD, then the Razor HD will be very close to the original EL and SLC.  But nobody knows that just yet.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 20:40
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Yeah I think they will be a solid glass. Like I said if they are the same quality as the Kaibabs I may get a pair.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 21:27
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I called and spoke to Vortex, and they said the new Razors have been completely redone. They are sopposed to be ALOT better. As for the new Vipers? I thinks they'll just have some better coatings? Sounds to me like the Razor HD's will be great glass. Now just need to save some $$

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 10:03
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So I also called Vortex out of my curiosity as well.  They indicated they have a better image then the Kaibab which is very impressive. I spent a lot of time comparing the Kaibab to Swarovski’s SLC.  I had them next to each other in the field a lot this season trying to decide which I would buy.  I ended up going with the Kaibab because I didn't see a $1200.00 difference and if you read the warranty terms Vortex is second to none.  I would say the nod goes to the SLC but by the smallest of margins.  In the middle of the day I couldn't tell any difference.  At dust in a very low light situation you could tell a very small difference with the SLC.  They were a little sharper then the Kaibab's. 

I asked the rep how he would compare the Razor HD to the new standard of the Swarovision El's by Swarovski.  His opinion may be a little basis although he indicated it would be similar to me comparing the Kaibab to the SLC.  The nod goes to the Swarovision although by the slimmest of margins.  Can't wait to look through them and see if this statement is true.  I have looked through the Swarovision's and they are brilliant.  We will have to wait and see!

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 14:18
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So would you pay $1200 for the Razor HD, or $1100 for a mint condition SLCneu?  That's the quandry Vortex will find itself in with the Razor HD pricing.  You can find demo/mint Swaro SLCneu all day long for less $$ than that. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 14:26
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Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

So would you pay $1200 for the Razor HD, or $1100 for a mint condition SLCneu?  That's the quandry Vortex will find itself in with the Razor HD pricing.  You can find demo/mint Swaro SLCneu all day long for less $$ than that. 
 
Yeah, but for how long?  I think Vortex is thinking "not that long".  They talked like they were pretty sure people would compare them more to the new SV EL and SLC-HD.  But who knows?  Not me for sure.  It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
 
Another thing that MAY play here is that the Razor HD is as close to made in the USA for a high end glass as you can get.
 
1-  Designed in the USA by Vortex
2-  Sold in the USA by Vortex
3-  Warranted and serviced in the USA by Vortex
4-  Just made someplace else.  Japan in this case, but not to carry the made in China label.
 
Kind of like the Leupold Gold Rings.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 14:46
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It will be very interesting. I would hope to think they are better than the older EL's and SLC.  I believe you are right as they should be compared to the SV EL and the SLC HD.  I wouldn't want to make any purchases until I have looked at them but if they are better than the old EL's  and close to the new ones I would much rather pay 1200 for a new pair of Vortex HD's and get their great warranty. The issue with buying used Swarovski's is if you don't have the paperwork you are basically out of their warranty.  I wouldn't want that investing that kind of money.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 15:08
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Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

 Another thing that MAY play here is that the Razor HD is as close to "made in the USA" for a high end glass as you can get.
 
4-  Just "made someplace else".  Japan in this case,
Steve,
 
Perhaps a better choice of wording is in order. Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 20:01
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Originally posted by jseballos23 jseballos23 wrote:

It will be very interesting. I would hope to think they are better than the older EL's and SLC.  I believe you are right as they should be compared to the SV EL and the SLC HD.  I wouldn't want to make any purchases until I have looked at them but if they are better than the old EL's  and close to the new ones I would much rather pay 1200 for a new pair of Vortex HD's and get their great warranty. The issue with buying used Swarovski's is if you don't have the paperwork you are basically out of their warranty.  I wouldn't want that investing that kind of money.


First of all the SLCneu is nearly as good as it gets, bar none  (see allbinos.com 10x42 tests, granted they haven't tested them all yet).  Secondly, Swaro has a lifetime transferrable warranty, no paperwork necessary, and is one of very few optics companies that do so.  If the Razor HD is as good as the Swaro SLCneu.  I'd have to see it to believe it myself.   I'll be surprised if it's any better optically than the Zen Ray ED2, which is fantastic.  I hope the Razor HD knocks our socks off.  Once again for $1200 it better.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 21:21
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Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Originally posted by jseballos23 jseballos23 wrote:

It will be very interesting. I would hope to think they are better than the older EL's and SLC.  I believe you are right as they should be compared to the SV EL and the SLC HD.  I wouldn't want to make any purchases until I have looked at them but if they are better than the old EL's  and close to the new ones I would much rather pay 1200 for a new pair of Vortex HD's and get their great warranty. The issue with buying used Swarovski's is if you don't have the paperwork you are basically out of their warranty.  I wouldn't want that investing that kind of money.


First of all the SLCneu is nearly as good as it gets, bar none  (see allbinos.com 10x42 tests, granted they haven't tested them all yet).  Secondly, Swaro has a lifetime transferrable warranty, no paperwork necessary, and is one of very few optics companies that do so.  If the Razor HD is as good as the Swaro SLCneu.  I'd have to see it to believe it myself.   I'll be surprised if it's any better optically than the Zen Ray ED2, which is fantastic.  I hope the Razor HD knocks our socks off.  Once again for $1200 it better.


I don't know if I agree with everything on allbinos, but I will agree that the SLCneu is near the top of the pile.  After a couple weeks of using my new pair, I am starting see why they have the reputation they have (Thanks JG for helping me pull the trigger on them).  I would also be surprised if the Razor HDs somehow are immediately, noticeably better than the SLCneus.  I have seen the Swarovision, and did not think it was on some "next level" of optics.  I did immediately notice that rolling ball, though. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 21:32
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Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:


 Secondly, Swaro has a lifetime transferrable warranty, no paperwork necessary, and is one of very few optics companies that do so. 


As does Vortex.  In fact their warranty is even more comprehensive than Swaro's.

Technically, though, Swaro's lifetime warranty is not transferrable by the language of their warranty.  I know they have a history of honoring their warranty with no questions asked, but there is nothing in their warranty that states it is transferrable, so they aren't legally compelled to honor it if you aren't the original owner.

On the price, if the Razor HD is anywhere close to SLC neu performance, it's a tremendous value at $1200, as that's still $600 - $800 less than the Swaro, comparing MSRP.  Since they haven't been made available yet and few outside of Vortex has seen them, I believe it's a bit premature to decide whether or not the price tag is fair.


Edited by RifleDude - February/23/2011 at 21:44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 21:54
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Good points Ted, but you'd be kidding yourself if you didn't think SLCneu's can be found any day for less than $1200, including like new demos, mint used ones.  You also know that Swaro's service is the industry standard, period.  Others can only hope to get there.  I'll stick to my guns though.....At $1200 it will be a tough, tough sell, much like Nikon expecting to sell lots of the new EDG @ $2200.  Why don't you come up with a "sticky" poll here and ask the good folks here......."If the price is the same, would you buy a SLCneu or Vortex Razor HD"?   It won't be close.  As a matter of fact I may do it on another forum.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 22:09
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I am still hopeful about the new Razor HD.  The folks at Vortex know their equipment, and their customers.  The original Razor was a good performer, and if the Razor HD is improved, it should be great.  If the Razor HD competes with the SLCneu, it will be a fine instrument indeed.

My point was that new binoculars from ANY manufacturer are going to have a hard time advancing performance by leaps and bounds when the bar is already set so high.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 23:08
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Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Good points Ted, but you'd be kidding yourself if you didn't think SLCneu's can be found any day for less than $1200, including like new demos, mint used ones.  You also know that Swaro's service is the industry standard, period.  Others can only hope to get there.  I'll stick to my guns though.....At $1200 it will be a tough, tough sell, much like Nikon expecting to sell lots of the new EDG @ $2200.  Why don't you come up with a "sticky" poll here and ask the good folks here......."If the price is the same, would you buy a SLCneu or Vortex Razor HD"?   It won't be close.  As a matter of fact I may do it on another forum.


Most of the demo and "like new" closeout SLCneu's I've seen were still about $200 more.

I saw your poll on the other forum, and my answer here is the same as it is there.  It's impossible to quantify what anything is worth, what price it should sell for, or what it compares to when nobody's even seen it yet.  We don't know; the new Razor HD may thoroughly kick @ss.  I don't believe it will be a tough sell at $1200 at all if it's optically superb and follows the value benchmark they set with products like their Razor spotter.  Who's to say it doesn't do exactly that at this point?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2011 at 03:15
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Good points Ted, but you'd be kidding yourself if you didn't think SLCneu's can be found any day for less than $1200, including like new demos, mint used ones.  You also know that Swaro's service is the industry standard, period.  Others can only hope to get there.  I'll stick to my guns though.....At $1200 it will be a tough, tough sell, much like Nikon expecting to sell lots of the new EDG @ $2200.  Why don't you come up with a "sticky" poll here and ask the good folks here......."If the price is the same, would you buy a SLCneu or Vortex Razor HD"?   It won't be close.  As a matter of fact I may do it on another forum.


Most of the demo and "like new" closeout SLCneu's I've seen were still about $200 more.

I saw your poll on the other forum, and my answer here is the same as it is there.  It's impossible to quantify what anything is worth, what price it should sell for, or what it compares to when nobody's even seen it yet.  We don't know; the new Razor HD may thoroughly kick @ss.  I don't believe it will be a tough sell at $1200 at all if it's optically superb and follows the value benchmark they set with products like their Razor spotter.  Who's to say it doesn't do exactly that at this point?

Ted, you've roamed around SHOT with me in the past.
I will say this: when I looked at the new Razor HD on the show floor, I could not come up with anything to nitpick on.
Make what you will out of it.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2011 at 09:32
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I really hope the Razor HD kicksass too, really.  I just know that perception is reality. Perception is that Swaro is among the cream of the crop in the hunting optics world, and Vortex not so much.  If they're near the same price people will choose Swaro 90% of the time IMO.  I never said the Razor wasn't impressive, but the Zen ED2 I had was better, and at $450.  I'd be willing to bet the Zen ED2 and even the Theron Ed (according to Steve) will give the Razor HD a run for it's money optically at 60% less money.  Time will tell. 

SLCneu demo/mint used all day long for $1100-$1200 is reality also.

I just took a peak at my straw poll over there.....good thing you didn't bet any money on it. Big Smile 


Edited by JGRaider - February/24/2011 at 09:38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2011 at 10:07
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Oh, I knew without a doubt what the outcome of that poll would be.  No doubt Swaro has a greater prestige name, and for good reason.  I'm a huge Swaro fan.  I have several of their products.  That doesn't in any way sway my view that it's possible to put together a binocular that will perform to the same level for less money, just by virtue of the high labor and importation costs on stuff made in Austria.  Vortex's Razor spotter proves that concept.  I also know that the perception of the Vortex name is very rapidly changing and people are realizing that their high end stuff is pretty damn good, even when compared against optics that are considerably more expensive.  Keep in mind how far they've come in only a few years, despite the fact they are one of the youngest brand names in optics and competing against some tough competition.   They are making some good stuff and treating customers well.  Word gets around.  They are already introducing new products at a rate unmatched by virtually anyone else.  They couldn't do that and provide a Leupold-like warranty at the same time unless they've been very successful. 
 
Also keep in mind the new Razor HD cost significantly less than SLC, and in a short amount of time, you'll be able to get used models of them too, so the new vs. used comparison is a very short lived scenario, only because the Razor HD hasn't been on the market for there to be any used models available yet.  As we've already seen over the years, today's alpha class binocular may very well be edged out by tomorrow's upper mid level binocular as technologies improve.  That's already true of today's offerings vs. the alphas of 15 years ago.
 
Perception is reality, but it can also be very fleeting.   It's way premature to evaluate the value of something that isn't even available for sale yet.  In short time, they will be out in the field and people will be commenting on them.  You will be able to see them at shows.  Folks like Koshkin will get samples for testing.  Some people's opinions of which is the better deal will undoubtedly change thereafter, and some won't.  You are evidently assuming everyone has the same concept of value.  If I like a product, I don't care who's name is on it, as long as I respect the company and the product gives me good performance for the price paid.  You are asking people to determine what's a better value involving something that they can't even buy yet.  Right now, I too would choose the Swaro if I could get both for the same price, but that's only because I haven't been able to see a Razor HD yet and nobody has reviewed one, so I know nothing of its virtues or lack thereof.  2 years from now, we may very well all have a totally different opinion than we do now, so as far as a product's life cycle is concerned, what we think now could be irrelevant once it's been on the market for awhile.  I'm willing to give any reputable company the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
 
On the ZenED2 comparison, I compared it head to head with the first gen Razor 8X42, and I had exactly the opposite opinion.  Both had about the same center field resolution.  Both had essentially the same CA control.  The Zen has greater FOV, but less depth of field and softer field edge than the Razor.  Razor had a larger sweet spot.  Razor had better control over flare when looking toward off-axis light sources.  I thought Razor edged out Zen by a slight margin.  Sure, Zen is much less expensive, but I liked Razor eye cups, focuser, and diopter adjustment better, and the fact it's made in Japan rather than China.
 


Edited by RifleDude - February/24/2011 at 10:41
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There is no doubt that everyone is chasing Swaro when it comes to optics. The poll is an obvious one.  If you have to pick between two products that have the same price and one is “slightly” better than the other the reply is an obvious one. But we can’t really answer that without seeing them right?

If these binos are anything like the Kaibab’s or their HD spotting scope it will be great product and will make that purchasing decision very interesting.  Like I said earlier I spent a lot of time in the field with the Kaibab’s and the SLC’s and ending up buying the Kaibab’s.  I could of bought the SLC’s but I couldn’t justify spending more $$ for such a minuscule difference.   The Vortex rep said they are better than the Kaibab so we will have to wait and see.  Vortex is making huge strides with their high end optics and no doubt they will gain some market share with their price and warranty if the buyer does his due diligence.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2011 at 11:07
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Guess what Ted?  I just bought a NIB Swaro SLC HD in 10x42 for $1490 delivered.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2011 at 12:54
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That's a great deal!  Big Smile
You can find great deals on any number of things if you look hard enough, and that applies to the items you compare against as well.  But first, said items have to be available for sale, and it's easier to find those good deals once the product has been available for awhile, correct?
 
My point was and continues to be that you're trying to make value judgments between an item of undetermined performance that isn't available for sale yet vs. a product that has been available for some time, comparing prices on same before one ever has a chance to get the benefit of discounts, and speculating on performance without having ever seen one.  You're making the assumption that today's realities of perceived value will forevermore hold true years from now.  Optics manufacturers don't invest capital in making products with the anticipation of a short lifespan.  If 2 years from now, nobody is buying the Razor HD, then the consumer has spoken and it's not worth the asking price.  The free market has a way of working these things out. 
 
Would you not agree that you can probably get the same discounts on the Razor HD after it's been available for sale for a couple years?  Given that, would you not agree that it would be logical to conclude that the same price differential would likely exist between two products at discounted prices?
 
 


Edited by RifleDude - February/24/2011 at 13:10
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Can't argue with that Ted.  Enjoyed the discussion.  As always I've learned something here.  I'm off to catch some bass and crappie with my coonass buddies.  
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Good luck!  I have some coonass relatives.  Knowing what I know about them, they all love to eat and could take shoe leather and make it into a dish to die for, so I'm sure they could "whoop up" some mighty fine crappy!
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JGR,
 
Since you brought up the perception deal, let me run this kink at you. Wink
 
You have to get another binocular right now.  You have a choice of two mint condition binoculars. They are the same price and within your budget.  One is an SLC neu and one is a Leupold Gold Ring.  Which would you get?
 
I know the price deal is irrelevant in the current market.  But just for arguemen't sake.  The reason I ask is that I "THINK" the new Razor HD will be at least as good as the Leupold GR, so from that standpoint, I think the analogy is somewhat valid.
 
I think the GR faced some of the same "perception" obstacles as the new Razor HD will.  In spite of the fact that the GR has flourite glass and some other advances, Leupold never seemed to try and push this glass real hard.  Vortex evidently has no intention of trying to market whatever real advances "HD" in fact represents.
 
Now to answer my own question, and to relate a little to my last post in this thread, I'd get the Leupold.  I know we both think the Leupold essentially gives up nothing to the SLC neu.  Neither optically , in warranty service, and certainly not in constuction.  WHile the name brand personna goes to the SLC, I would opt for the Leupold because it is an American company who designed the glass, and will sell and service here.  Just made it someplace else.  Same philosophy will apply to Vortex.


Edited by Klamath - February/24/2011 at 14:46
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