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Vintage scope questions

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:17
lifesadrag View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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I'm a new member and was hoping to get some advice about a scope on a rifle I recently bought from a friend. It's a pre64 win. mod.70 30/06. It has a Unertl Hawk 4X scope mounted in a Pachmayr Lo-swing mount. The scope is in great shape. I want to use the gun primarily for whitetails out to 200yds. My questions are......

1) Does anyone have any info. or opinions of this scope?
2) Is this scopes power adequit for this?
3) I would like to put a Bushnell Elite 4200 3X9X40 on this gun, could I still use the Pachmayr mount to keep the guns historic integrity?
 
I value your opinions and here are a couple of pics.
 
 
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:22
rifle looney View Drop Down
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IMO. the scope is adequit for the task you speak of tough not the best, a 4200 will be like night and day. the mount most likely wont work due to the configuration and the turret position on the 4200 ,this being said don't worry about changing for it does not distract from the gun only the looks. and if you keep the old set up thats good enough should you want to sell or reinstall at a later date. I have the same gun and changed as well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:29
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Rifle Looney, You said you have the same rifle will he have to get it tapped if he uses a different mount or is this rifle tapped on top also. I did not think the rifle came tapped.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:32
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My gun is a 1951 m.70 as for as I know they are factory tapped.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:33
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Optics GrassHopper
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I don't believe the rifle is tapped and the holes from the Lo-swing mount would have to be filled.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:33
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 I'll trade you, as is. for a brand new Remington 700 in any caliber you want, with the 4200 already mounted in new rings...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:35
lifesadrag View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I'll trade you, as is. for a brand new Remington 700 in any caliber you want, with the 4200 already mounted in new rings...
 
Thanks but I think I'll suffer through this.Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:36
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Filling the holes is as easy as putting threaded plugs this is done all the time and it really should be tapped if I'm wrong I'm wrong my gun had an lyman arpature site on it with plugs in the holes, and the guy I got it from bought it brand new ?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:38
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Originally posted by lifesadrag lifesadrag wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I'll trade you, as is. for a brand new Remington 700 in any caliber you want, with the 4200 already mounted in new rings...
 
Thanks but I think I'll suffer through this.Wink
Welcome to the OT.  Why is life a drag???  The alternative is not too appealing to me at this point in time.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:39
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Originally posted by lifesadrag lifesadrag wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I'll trade you, as is. for a brand new Remington 700 in any caliber you want, with the 4200 already mounted in new rings...
 
Thanks but I think I'll suffer through this.Wink
 
  Dang!
...and they say there's one born every minute!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:41
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Optics GrassHopper
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by lifesadrag lifesadrag wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I'll trade you, as is. for a brand new Remington 700 in any caliber you want, with the 4200 already mounted in new rings...
 
Thanks but I think I'll suffer through this.Wink
Welcome to the OT.  Why is life a drag???  The alternative is not too appealing to me at this point in time.  
 
It's in reference to dragging a deer out of the woods.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:42
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Optics GrassHopper
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

Originally posted by lifesadrag lifesadrag wrote:

Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I'll trade you, as is. for a brand new Remington 700 in any caliber you want, with the 4200 already mounted in new rings...
 
Thanks but I think I'll suffer through this.Wink
 
  Dang!
...and they say there's one born every minute!
 
That's how I got the rifle in the first place.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:42
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AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH...  Whew, I was worried about you for a minute there, dude.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:44
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I looked in my Winchester history book and it tells everything except this, but it does not seem right it would not be tapped?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:45
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH...  Whew, I was worried about you for a minute there, dude.
 
Thanks for the concern and the opinions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:47
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I'm sure John Barsness could shed some light on this wait till he sees the post!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:49
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Optics GrassHopper
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Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

I looked in my Winchester history book and it tells everything except this, but it does not seem right it would not be tapped?
 
I will check at the first chance I get, thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 19:59
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  OK. According to the Blue Book ALL pre -war M70's have only two holes in front. From 1946-1948 a M70 Transition model was introduced(had to do with the safety)and the reciever bridge may or may not be factory drilled. From 1946-1963 most are drilled  2 in front and 2 in back on the reciever(except early .300H+H and .375H+H). About all I can find.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 21:06
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Optics GrassHopper
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Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

  OK. According to the Blue Book ALL pre -war M70's have only two holes in front. From 1946-1948 a M70 Transition model was introduced(had to do with the safety)and the reciever bridge may or may not be factory drilled. From 1946-1963 most are drilled  2 in front and 2 in back on the reciever(except early .300H+H and .375H+H). About all I can find.
 
Just checked....2 in front and 2 in back. Rifle mfg. 1948
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 21:23
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   Excellent   WHEOOOOO!     thought I was loosin it? I have never seen a Winchester with no holes for scope mounts.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2009 at 21:24
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That's a nifty old setup.
 
The 4x Undertl Hawk was considered one of the quality scopes of it's day, but of course has now been surpassed by a long way. I have one myself, in very good condition but not quite as good as yours. The lenses were coated toward the end of production but not like today's scopes, and on mine are just coated on the outside surfaces.
 
Like the earlier steel-tube El Paso Weavers that era of Unterls also weren't sealed against moisture very well. In fact you can unscrew the turret bases and take them off, or at least you can in my scope. They are pretty tough though.
 
A 4x is plenty for deer at 200 yards but with an older scope like that the light has to be pretty good. It would help if the reticle was a post, which shows up better in dim light, but the one on my 4x Hawk is a small dot on very fine crosshairs. The light has to be pretty darn good!
 
I am always tempted to keep such rifle/scope combos as they were, since they are pieces of history. I have a pre-war M70 .30-06 that has a 2.5x Lyman Alaskan in Redfield mounts. It was drilled and tapped on the rear bridge to accept them, so isn't original, but it is very much a rifle of its day, and still shoots pretty darn well.
 
That said, you could replace the Unertl with something a little slimmer than the scope you are thinking about. A 1.5-5x Leupold would work, and some others as well. I suspect the rifle would require a long eye-relief scope like the 1.5-5x to provide enough field of view with the Pachmayr mount being so far forward.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2009 at 00:17
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All the Model 70s were factory tapped.  The pre-war models had different hole distance measurements than the post-war models.   His is post-war.  Any Winchester M70 mounts will fit on top. 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2009 at 15:43
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Optics GrassHopper
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Thanks everyone....now it's decision time!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2009 at 13:41
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Optics GrassHopper
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Any Unertl 1" scope 2&3/4 (Falcon), 4X (Hawk), 6X (Condor) or 8 & 10X (Vulture) is a fine piece of optics and were the among, if not, the best made in their era. A  Hawk would work just fine for your application, assuming it is in A-1 condition, just as it did for the guy who put it on there.
There is no need to "upgrade". If that mount has the "solid" (unsplit) rings typical of them the scope has to be taken apart to install which cannot be done with a modern "sealed" scope.
If you want the straight facts on Model 70s, you need a copy of THE RIFLESMAN'S RIFLE by Roger Rule. It is the M 70 bible. Enjoy your classic rig, it will do the job.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2009 at 00:35
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Optics GrassHopper
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Thanks for the advice everyone.....I think I'll try it out this hunting season as is. Outlook, that is one expensive book. I think I'll see if I can find a copy at the library, It sure sounds like a good read!
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