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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2015 at 18:35
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PEO Soldier Provides Modular Handgun System Program Update

We just received this update from PEO Soldier in the progress of the Modular Handgun System Program which aims to replace the current issue M9 pistol in 9mm which is manufactured by Beretta.

New Army sidearm program advances

FORT BELVOIR, Va. (Oct. 31, 2014) – The U.S. Army moved a step closer toward the purchase of a new, modern handgun system for Warfighters when Program Executive Office Soldier hosted a third industry day for interested manufacturers here Oct. 28-29.

Debi Dawson, PEO Soldier spokesperson, said representatives of 20 companies attended the government-industry meeting. Federal procurement restrictions don’t allow the disclosing of the names of firms participating, the spokesperson said.

The Army calls the new sidearm the “Modular Handgun System.”

Attendees discussed the Army’s draft solicitation for the new weapon system, which will replace the current M9 standard Army sidearm, according to Dawson.

Since the M9 entered the Army’s inventory in 1986, handgun technology has advanced significantly with the introduction of lighter weight materials, ergonomics and rails for accessories, Dawson said. Through the competition, the Army intends to replace the M9 with a state-of-the-art handgun.

Current plans call for the Army to purchase more than 280,000 handguns from a single vendor, with delivery of the first new handgun systems scheduled for 2017. The Army also plans to buy approximately 7,000 sub-compact versions of the handgun.

The other military services participating in the MHS program may order an additional 212,000 systems above the Army quantity.

The Army issued the draft solicitation, which identifies design and performance requirements for the new handgun system, Sept. 29 through the government FedBizOps. This Federal Government website posts all procurement opportunities more than $25,000.

The draft includes proposed procedural and schedule details responding vendors must follow to participate in the competition.

The Army held two previous industry days at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., Dec. 18, 2013, and July 29.

The purpose of these industry days was to enhance vendor-government communications by involving likely competitors throughout the planning process. The days also allowed the Army to obtain their feedback on whether the products and proposed strategy are achievable and affordable.

During the Industry Day meetings, Army representatives discussed details about the “more accurate, ergonomic, reliable, durable and maintainable” handgun system the service seeks to buy through full and open competition, Dawson said.

Throughout the process, the Army encouraged Industry attendees to suggest ways in which the Army can improve the plan and process. The Army has adopted a number of suggestions and ideas.

The draft solicitation calls for a commercially available weapon tailored to the unique needs of the military services. The solicitation specified no particular caliber. However, the Army is seeking a handgun system that outperforms its current sidearm. The Army is also seeking a modular weapon, meaning it allows adjustments to fit all hand sizes. Although purchasing a commercially available system, the Army is encouraging Industry to optimize gun, ammunition and magazine for maximum performance.

The competition itself will choose a handgun that performs best in the hands of Warfighters who will play a critical part in the evaluation. More than 550 military personnel from all of the Services will participate and provide feedback on the performance of each of the candidate system after firing them in simulated combat scenarios. This particular Warfighter assessment is an important part of the evaluation process.

The Army expects to begin the competition in early January 2015 with the scheduled release of the final solicitation. The competition will result in the Army beginning a long-term partnership with a single vendor

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2015 at 19:00
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" The competition will result in the Army beginning a long-term partnership with a single vendor"

Which of the current politicians owns or has controlling stock in arms manufacture?? 

Really curious to see what cal they will go with.  Will they choose based on current availability, ballistic performance or nato???????

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2015 at 19:07
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SgtD, I've spoken with some of the personnel in the selection process.  This is to be a full up competition to find the most modern, most effective handgun for the U.S. Army.  It is an opportunity to truly answer all the questions.  The objective of any full-up competition is to create a long-term partnership with a single vendor.  It would make no sense to set out to be looking for multiple vendors of the same item… that has never been cost effective OR performance effective.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2015 at 19:29
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Is it your interpretation that they are asking for "new concept" or proof of an existing system. There are some polymer systems out there that could meet this outline.

And please forgive my pessimism as I have 0 confidence in anything the current administration is doing under the guise of "improvement". And if any funding has been set for such a venture it, A has some really ugly junk attached to it. B will most certainly make somebody (of their choosing) very wealthy. And 3 be utterly backwards because HEY! its the Army. (side note) I really miss being in, But I haven't forgot the arrogant stupidity. Just sayin..........

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2015 at 19:45
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PM Soldier Weapons is a warfighter, much of the organization is composed of warfighters.  Their goal is "the best conceptually and technologically to meet the needs of the warfighter".  While with any government organization there are those who serve their own ends and not those of the "masses" (that can be said of virtually any organization that has some influence over money and power… civilian and military), the majority of those I have had dealings with are both honorable and devoted.  
The objective is to find the best, not just adequate, handgun for the Army.  New concepts are to be evaluated along with existing.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2015 at 20:02
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I apologize for my ignorance. Sounds like something I'd like to be involved in. But that said I am still cautious to affirm. Honorable, devoted men serving under a corrupt head will face compromise. And that always leads to a decision. I know first hand as I'm sure you do as well. None the less, some valuable research and data will certainly be realized in this venture. Do you think you might get to contribute??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2015 at 20:23
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Just saying that I believe the good of the service will be served and that there will be a definitive study on effectiveness of varioius calibers along with innovative designs and possibilities for quick-change for various applications with a single frame.
Should be good...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2015 at 20:40
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Keep us informed, Really would like to know what cal and make comes up top pick.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2015 at 15:31
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A couple thoughts: Unlike projects such as the F-35, which are cancellation-proofed by spreading the largess across 40 states and 9 countries, at least going with a single supplier on a relatively simple item has a chance of not being an incredibly costly, master-of-nothing bastard from Hell.

Also, they're doing it while in a relative period of calm unlike, say, this "fine" example of hasty, often fatal procurement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Reising (probably one of the worst examples ever of small arms).

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 08:20
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Ouch Jon, that hurt. The F-35, the multi-role fighter that NEEDS to go away, because it does nothing well except eat money. The M-50 Reising, one of three transferable machine guns that can still be found for $5,000.00 or less, and when issued was accidentally lost on purpose more than any other arm.

Since FMJ ammo will be required, I wonder how they are going to snow everyone that the 9mm is superior to the 45ACP.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 08:48
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My prediction is that they will go 40 S&W as they will want to retain 15+ round mags. I also expect them to select Glock . Im sure Sig and H&K will score well. The S&W. M&P is a likely contender also. I dont see them going back to 1911. I also dont see them going Glock 21 although it would be a fine choice it is not ideal for small hands. Not sure H&K can put out that many quickly but great pistols. FN also makes one.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 09:11
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+1 on the 40 S&W. It is in place and can handle most points on the list. And if Beltfed is correct on the FMJ it will out perform the 9mm. Normally I would think, "they won't go with 357sig due to cost". But since this administrations goal is to crash our economy I can't rule it out. After all spending big on failed policy is their trade mark.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 10:18
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I just wonder what the requirements are, such as, do they require a specific action type, a manual or passive safety, minimum and maximum trigger pull weights, etc.. Until they get to that phase then this is just the beginning of the research.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 12:36
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I am involved with some aspects of the F-35 and I am not nearly as pessimistic about it as you are.  All high tech programs have issues and despite the setbacks, JSF has a lot going for it.

Cancelling the F-22 was shortsighted, but the F-35 has its place (a few places actually).

As is, within the next 20 years most of the current aviation functions will be picked up by the UAVs, so the mission statement for piloted  aircraft will change and existing F-22 fleet and upcoming F-35 fleet are reasonably well suited to it.

As far as the PEO Soldier goes, that is about as respectable an organization as government gets.  We do some business with them and I do not doubt that the results of their tests will be valuable and worthwhile.  
I a 98% confident that they will stay with a 9mm sidearm, although the load itself will change.  However, I sincerely hope they walk away from the Beretta.  The big questions is whether they will go with an itnerchangeable backstrap (Glock, etc) system or interchangeable frame system (Sig, etc).

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 12:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 13:42
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I am involved with some aspects of the F-35 and I am not nearly as pessimistic about it as you are.  All high tech programs have issues and despite the setbacks, JSF has a lot going for it.

Cancelling the F-22 was shortsighted, but the F-35 has its place (a few places actually).

As is, within the next 20 years most of the current aviation functions will be picked up by the UAVs, so the mission statement for piloted  aircraft will change and existing F-22 fleet and upcoming F-35 fleet are reasonably well suited to it.

As far as the PEO Soldier goes, that is about as respectable an organization as government gets.  We do some business with them and I do not doubt that the results of their tests will be valuable and worthwhile.  
I a 98% confident that they will stay with a 9mm sidearm, although the load itself will change.  However, I sincerely hope they walk away from the Beretta.  The big questions is whether they will go with an itnerchangeable backstrap (Glock, etc) system or interchangeable frame system (Sig, etc).

ILya    

Ouch!!!!!! You cut me deep on that one! Why so cruel??
Don't you know that the de-cocker safety is one of the main reasons 60% of E-2's and LT's haven't shot themselves or someone else. The Beretta has proven hands down an effective sidearm "in mature hands". Some of the kids I've helped train at Bragg and Sumter, If you put a Glock or Sig in their hand. I'm leaving............. 97% of the time I can take a kid who has never even held a side arm and in under an hour have them qualified. And with some quality follow up they "usually" can be trusted to actually carry the things. If you put anything on those kids that does not have a de-cocker safety you will see n-d's, c-d's or u-d's or what ever you label a negligent discharge go thru the roof!!!!

It won't surprise me to see em stay with 9mm. That is nato, well in place and plenty effective in other than FMJ. But if they insist on issuing FMJ only then making this change is pointless and only can serve in lining some pockets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 15:09
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I could be mistaken, but I honestly don't see them selecting Glock or any other DAO "safe trigger" striker gun without external safety, just due to the risk of NDs in inexperienced hands, as Mark alluded to. This will have to be a "one size fits all sidearm" after all.

I could see some variation of a DA/SA with decocker or a DAO with some other mechanical safety besides just a "trigger safety." The modular grip thing combined with current technology and the advantages of polymer from a maintenance, grip width, and weight standpoint makes me think they'll select a polymer frame gun. If that's the case, I could see something like S&W M&P or maybe Glock could end up submitting a manual safety version of one of their existing pistols. Ditto with H&K VP9. If they elect to go with an all metal gun, I think Sig has the edge there, since they already supply the M11-A1 to the Navy. That would just make the most sense from a commonality standpoint, especially since it's a proven design.

The requirement to use ball ammo is a significant contributor to lack of lethality, and that policy really needs to be changed.
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I would think that Sig would submit the 320 rather than one of their all metal guns. I keep hearing very good things about the 320 from some very knowledgeable individuals. Such as Bruce Gray of Gray Guns. He also has good things to say about the VP9.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 17:42
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I could be mistaken, but I honestly don't see them selecting Glock or any other DAO "safe trigger" striker gun without external safety, just due to the risk of NDs in inexperienced hands, as Mark alluded to. This will have to be a "one size fits all sidearm" after all.

I could see some variation of a DA/SA with decocker or a DAO with some other mechanical safety besides just a "trigger safety." The modular grip thing combined with current technology and the advantages of polymer from a maintenance, grip width, and weight standpoint makes me think they'll select a polymer frame gun. If that's the case, I could see something like S&W M&P or maybe Glock could end up submitting a manual safety version of one of their existing pistols. Ditto with H&K VP9. If they elect to go with an all metal gun, I think Sig has the edge there, since they already supply the M11-A1 to the Navy. That would just make the most sense from a commonality standpoint, especially since it's a proven design.

The requirement to use ball ammo is a significant contributor to lack of lethality, and that policy really needs to be changed.

Good thoughts...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 17:56
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I agree that it will likely be a striker fired, polymer frame pistol with an external safety of some sort firing a new 9mm round.

Considering the sheer number of 9mm ammo in the system now, I bet the new handgun will be compatible with the existing ammo.  The ball ammo requirement can probably be worked around.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 18:03
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I a 98% confident that they will stay with a 9mm sidearm, although the load itself will change.  However, I sincerely hope they walk away from the Beretta.  The big questions is whether they will go with an itnerchangeable backstrap (Glock, etc) system or interchangeable frame system (Sig, etc).

ILya    

Ouch!!!!!! You cut me deep on that one! Why so cruel??
Don't you know that the de-cocker safety is one of the main reasons 60% of E-2's and LT's haven't shot themselves or someone else. The Beretta has proven hands down an effective sidearm "in mature hands". Some of the kids I've helped train at Bragg and Sumter, If you put a Glock or Sig in their hand. I'm leaving............. 97% of the time I can take a kid who has never even held a side arm and in under an hour have them qualified. And with some quality follow up they "usually" can be trusted to actually carry the things. If you put anything on those kids that does not have a de-cocker safety you will see n-d's, c-d's or u-d's or what ever you label a negligent discharge go thru the roof!!!!

It won't surprise me to see em stay with 9mm. That is nato, well in place and plenty effective in other than FMJ. But if they insist on issuing FMJ only then making this change is pointless and only can serve in lining some pockets.

I have yet to fire a Beretta 92 that worked properly.  However, most of my dislike for it is simply due to the fact that it is uncomfortable for me.

As far as negligent discharges go...  we will always have the Darwin awards, I suppose....

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 18:04
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Put an active safety on the Glock and be done.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 18:09
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Put a Glock in their holsters and be done.

Fixed it. Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2015 at 18:35
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The bullet issue stems from The Hague Convention  where it says

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions. The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

This is supported by the Declaration of St. Petersburg

Considering that the progress of civilization should have the effect of alleviating as much as possible the calamities of war: That the only legitimate object which States should endeavour to accomplish during war is to weaken the military forces of the enemy;
That for this purpose it is sufficient to disable the greatest possible number of men;
That this object would be exceeded by the employment of arms which uselessly aggravate the sufferings of disabled men, or render their death inevitable;
That the employment of such arms would, therefore, be contrary to the laws of humanity;

The bullet issue is more a morality issue than political greed.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2015 at 06:53
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Which bullet is more moral??? Can't be shooting immoral bullets.


Sounds kind of like a "Sincere Pumpkin Patch"...

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