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Two scopes or one for a 22lr?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/29/2011 at 22:24
kmcdonou View Drop Down
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I am getting my first rifle, a Cooper 22lr.  I am really excited.  In anticipation, I purchased a Minox 1.5-8x32 scope as a demo unit from the 2011 Shot Show.  It has a German #4 reticle and I think it will be excellent for hunting and general plinking in the highly forested area in which I live (100 yard shots are long).  However, I realize most of my shooting will be at targets and would like to work up to shooting at 200 yards. I am not interested in benchrest precision, but more tactical level of accuracy (probably not described well, but I don't know how to do any better).

I was thinking about selling the Minox and buying something more versatile, like a 3-12x42 with target turrets.  However, it seems like there is always a compromise in getting one scope to serve both purposes of hunting/general plinking and target shooting.   I looked at a Sightron Big Sky 3-12x42 (I want with something at lower power for hunting), but it only comes in a plex reticle and I really don't care for this style of reticle.  I like a German #4 reticle for hunting, and for target shooting I'd rather use a fine crosshair or dot reticle (I rather not use a mil dot as I will probably dial my elevation and windage and will be working at known distance targets).  Thus the compromise.  

I was thinking I would just keep the Minox and mount it with quick detach mounts and then get a fixed power 12x scope for target shooting. I know a lot of rimfire benchrest folks go with high magnification scopes (24x and higher), but I don't want to go that high.  I know some tactical folk feel 10x is fine out to 600 yards.  I rather stay a lower magnification (10x-15x).  Also, in the back of my mind, is the idea that if I do enjoy shooting and purchase some centerfires next I'd like to use the same type of target scope on them. I like the idea of using similar equipment on all of my rifles to build familiarity.  

Thus, I was thinking about getting a Leupold FX-3 12x40mm for target purposes and to complement the Minox.  Via the custom shop I can get the exact reticle I want and it has good glass, tracking, target turrets, and AO (so I can focus down to 10 yards for indoor shoots a the local range in the winter). However, I am not sure how close it can focus. I know I can call Leupold, but real world experience is better than theory. For example, I asked Leupold how close a Mark 4 4.5-14x40 can focus and they said 75 yards, but someone on Sniper Central reported being able to focus clearly down to 20 yards on 14x.

I am still not entirely sold on the two scope approach. If I could find a 3-12, 3-15, or 4-14 scope with an objective no bigger than 42mm, with a German #4 reticle, target turrets with noticeable clicks, good tracking, adjustable objective, quality class, with a price under $1000, I'd be happy. However, I haven't been able to find that.  I still might go with the 3-12x42 Sightron Big Sky with the plex reticle as it does simplify the scope situation, but I am not sure about that decision either.  

Hmm, two scopes, both with the setups I desire or one that requires some compromise.  Any thoughts, either on the close focusing capabilities of the Leupold or suggestions for scope that meets my criteria?





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 11:21
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Why not the 3-15 Minox with #4 reticle then.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 11:35
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What about a Conquest 4.5-14x44 MC AO? Adjustable down to 30yds per Zeiss?

Edited by SVT_Tactical - March/30/2011 at 11:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 13:09
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Swaro Z3 3-10x42 4A ret.@ SWFA $838.95.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 15:17
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The larger Minox doesn't have target turrets, nor does the Swarovski. I've also read from some people on one of the Sniper forums that the Swarovski's tracking was poor, although I find that hard to believe.   I don't believe either have AO.  

I really considered the Conquest. The fact you mentioned it made me relook at it.  I originally was concerned about the 44mm objective. I was afraid of having to use medium rings and I wouldn't get good a cheek weld without some sort of strap-on riser of some sort.  Is that true with 44mm objectives when using a classic stock?  

I also thought the 4.5x would be a little too high as the low power for shooting rodents at close range. However, I looked through my Minox at this power at a squirrel under my bird feeder and I could see it fine (e.g. good enough FOV).   I know I can get target turrets installed as an option with this scope, so that is good.  

Besides the objective concern, I am wondering about the AO.  Zeiss says parallax is adjustable down to 30 yards.  From my reading that doesn't directly relate to focusing distance. Do you think I could set the parallax at 30 yards and be able to focus closer at max power or close to max power?  I was thinking a high power would be useful (although not required) for indoor shooting in the winter at a local range. 

I appreciate everyone's help.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 15:22
kmcdonou View Drop Down
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The other issue I am wondering about with the Zeiss is the MOA of adjustment.  It says on Zeiss' site that the 4.5-14x44 has square adjustment range of 42.8 inch/100 yards.  I am not sure what that means. Is this enough adjustment to shoot a 22lr at 200 yards?  How much adjustment will it allow me to shoot a 22lr?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 15:50
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Depends.  42.8 inches at 100 yds is about 43MOA.   Need to figure your drop with what ammo your using
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 16:01
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From doing some research, it appears a 22lr bullet will drop about 32-38" at 200 yards, depending on the ammo used.  Is that 43moa reported by Zeiss in both directions?  If it is 43MOA up and 43MOA down then I would be fine for that issue. If that is total, I won't have enough.  Do target turrets add more adjustment or is that based on the scope design?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 16:30
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43moa is total adjustment for elevation. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 20:10
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The vxII 3x9-33 efr is highly spoken of on RFC.  There is a plain duplex and a rimfire duplex (a little finer).  It will adjust out parallax to down close, some say 10 yards, some say 10m, but close.  I tried one but got a scope only handled by a competitor to SWFA.  That said the EFR's are very nice to look through and the most impressive thing to me was how well the one I looked through returned to zero, both from zoom and parallax adjustment.  Only reason I did not get it was I had some trouble getting it delivered and in the time waiting I saw a private label LOW scope that was very similar and cost much less, but did not have a gold ring with a L on the side.

If I was you I would try the rimfire EFR, I think it will be a nice fit on your Cooper.  Did you get a 57?  As you know you can get different reticles and target knobs through the custom shop on the EFR..  And yes, for up close you are going to need AO or side focus for target work to adjust parallax out, it is not an option, the gun is too accurate to not have an accurate scope.

Why do you feel you need so much MOA adjustment?  The EFR has +- 32.  You can get a 20 MOA base or just use Zee rings and get more elevation if you feel you are going to need it.  But if it was me and needed 32 MOA for a 22lr rimfire shot I would get out a 17hmr rifle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 20:14
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Oh, one thing I did not like about the EFR was the eye relief varied about an inch with power.  But other than that it was very nice and I think it was me not being used to it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/30/2011 at 20:19
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Why not just buy another .22 to use for hunting, and use the cooper to distance shoot? Be a shame to ding up a cooper gomming around in the woods. 


Just my .02

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2011 at 15:48
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neilbilly - Well, I like the idea of using one rifle for everything. It breeds familiarity, which I hope with practice, will lead me to become a better shooter.   

robmints - As for the EFR scope, I was looking for a little bit more power on the top end.  A lot of people at rimfirecentral.com use 18-36x scopes.  Granted I am not interested in benchrest groupings, but was thinking maybe a little more power is in order.  Maybe I am being overly idealistic, but I was hoping I could use the same scope I get for this Cooper for my next gun, and next (obviously not the same scope, but the same model). It seems to me as a beginning shooter I will benefit by using the same equipment. The thing with the Leupold EFR scopes is either they are a little under powered at the top end (3-9) or too high at the bottom (6-20).  If there was a 3-12 my decision would have been made long ago.

Yes, I also agree I could get some Burris Zee rings with inserts to get some more MOA.  I just learned about those today.  I am trying not to make my scope mounting system look weird.  I haven't looked at any pictures of rifles using a raised base or ring inserts to see if the looks of the rifle are thrown off.  I don't want anything that will throw off the classic looks of the Cooper or preferably not require me to have a comb riser to maintain good cheek weld.  

As for using the 22lr for 200 yard shooting. That is a goal, not a requirement.  I want to get into rifles for shooting. I'd love to hunt, and maybe I will, but that is a whole other commitment of time and skill.  It seems like shooting is more accessible.  Shooting at 200 yards with a 22lr I read is like shooting a 308 at 800-900 yards. Although I don't think I will strive for those distances, I would like to get one or two centerfires eventually and work up to shooting at 600 yards (I have a local range that accommodates that distance). The 22lr at 200 yards (or 175 or 150, I am not committed to 200) is cheap practice to help me develop into a better shooter. So that is where I am coming from.  

After doing some more reading, I think there still is a possibility of meeting my original goals.  The Bushnell Elite 6500 4-16x42 (multi-plex) or the Sightron Big Sky's 3-12x42 (duplex) or 4-16x42(duplex or dot) all look promising. All of these report to focus down to 10 yards, they have 42mm objectives, which mean I can likely use low rings, and all but the 3-12 have 80 moa of adjustment.  If I use a Burris Zee ring with inserts I should be able to get enough moa to shoot at 200 yards with a 50 yard zero.  Although none of them have a German 4 reticle, the plex or dot will be fine.

The only thing I sometimes worry about is whether there will be an instance where 4x will be too much power at the low end. I think I will be fine.  Yesterday I took my Minox 1.5-8x32 and turned it up to 4-5x while looking at a squirrel under my bird feeder (likely the shortest distance I can imagine shooting) and it had a reasonable field of view. As a result, I think either 3x or 4x on low power will be fine.

I am open to other ideas as well.  I am just trying to find a system that is flexible enough to address most of my shooting opportunities (present and future), without pigeonholing me into one setup (target or hunting). I also can't afford to own several quality rifles and scopes, especially with all the other gear one seems to accumulate with a hobby. I can afford a really nice rifle and quality scope every couple of years. I am content having  few really great rifles that bring a smile to my face every time I pick them up or shoot them.

I'd appreciate any more thoughts you may have.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2011 at 21:02
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I shoot both my Anschutz and my Volquartsen 22s at 100yds and occasionally out to 200yds with a Leupold 3-9 EFR. And I rarely feel I need more magnification. I do have a Leupold 6.5-20 EFR as well. In the beginning I thought I would need more magnification, but that has not been the case for me. I did consider changing to a Bushnell 4200 elite 4-16, but I decided I did not need the additional magnification.

As far as shooting a 22 to 200yds is like shooting a 308 at so many yds. I have always heard around 500yds and not 800 to 900yds. But I am sure there are a number of different thoughts on that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2011 at 21:43
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on my new cooper 57m LVT I mounted a 6x24x40 Bushnell Elite 4200 all I can say is WOW its GREAT
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/01/2011 at 17:22
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 .....
You hit a lot of stuff there.  And I will defer to your experience.  I thought Cooper had an accuracy guarantee?  And they are made in the US?  There are some valid reasons someone would want a Anschutz, Cooper, Kimber or other quality 22lr.  I love shooting my 22lr.  Shoot it 100 times more than anything else I own.  It is quiet, cheap to feed, simple to feed (once you find it's preferred diet), and amazingly accurate.  Ammo evaluation can be a cross between an art and a science but you can find accurate and inexpensive cartridges.  Point is if I want to target shoot, small game hunt, or plink an afternoon away I can do so on a $50 brick of ammo and be 1/2 moa @ 50 and 1 to 1 1/2 @ 100 all day. Over the life of that rifle it will pay for it's self several times over just in bullets, not to mention the enjoyment factor.

And wait a minute.  6 1/2 lbs is heavy?  My CZ FS is a very enjoyable rifle to carry through the woods and it weighs 6.7 # with a sling and no scope.  My little squirrel gun is exactly the same with a scope.

Also my 22-250 is about 30 cents for primer powder and bullet / no brass, my 22lr is about 8 cents a shot with no reloading time or brass cost involved.  7-08?  I'm shooting squirrels, rabbits, tin cans, eggs, flies, small bore targets.  No elk or other herd animal.  Just want to shoot the day away with a quality gun that I'm proud to own and enjoy shooting.

Plus, I think if KMC was getting a 10/22 it would be a Kidd, so you are not saving him any money over the Cooper.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - April/03/2011 at 15:28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/01/2011 at 21:47
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Or a $400 Rusty 82.  Or a ect. ect.

You are much more observant than I.  The "first rifle" went right by me.  But even if we would do things differently I can still appreciate someone wanting the best they can afford.  I'm partial to Savage CF and CZ rimfires but not everyone is going to see my "bang for buck" equation and willingness to tweak and test the way I do.

On behalf of the OP, thanks for putting so much thought into helping him, you have provided some excellent advise.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2011 at 13:02
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I really appreciate all the advice everyone has given.  I have given a lot of thought as to the rifle I want to get.  I am one of those types that does a lot of reading beforehand, seeking answers to my questions by scouring forum archives and only when I cannot find an answer to my question will I post. 

From all the reading I have done, I frequently encounter the  argument of quality. To some, they won't waste their money paying any more than necessary to get a reliable and accurate rifle.  I call this the value approach.  To these people, there is no need to buy a Cooper, Anschutz, Remington 547, etc. when less expensive factory rifles do the same thing for less money. I totally respect this viewpoint and have applied this same philosophy to other areas of my life.

However, I often view quality in a broader way.  I obviously want reliability and accuracy in my rifle, as with the value seekers, but I also appreciate craftsmanship and aesthetics. To me, a Cooper with a nice AAA grade stock represents this level of quality. Granted it is not as well crafted as a true custom rifle, but my budget isn't that high.  

Cooper does have an accuracy guarantee (at 50 yards I believe) and I haven't read any bad reports about the 57m in 22lr.  Everyone I have read praise their accuracy. From other readings, when people have problems with their Coopers (as it appears to be with the guy  having a 11 inch difference at 200 yards with a cold bore shot compared to his second and third shots) the company tends to be quick to take care of the porblem. 

As for why I want to shoot at 200 yards, the distance isn't the issue. I may never shoot that far.  I would like to start shooting, pure and simple.  I am looking for a way to challenge myself, and also develop skills that I will be able to transfer to centerfires later on.  I have a range that accommodates 600 yard shooting, but it is 45 minutes away.  My neighbor has a field that likely can accommodate 200 yards shots. By practicing at these distances I will develop my skill at reading, controlling my breathing , trigger squeeze, etc.  

As robmints points out, a 22lr is cheap to shoot and very versatile.  I would like to hunt with my rifle, but may never do that. At the least I will be able to  control chipmunks and red squirrels and practice my shooting skills.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2011 at 13:35
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I do keep coming back to the issue of magnification and how much is enough.  I know a lot of benchrest shooters use 24-36x.  Top silhouette shooters use around 24x.  I am not interested so much that my bullets are as close together as possible, and that I can see the bullet hits through my scope.  I see myself more as putting up an X diameter circle at a particular distance and trying to get my shots somewhere in the circle. I may shoot at paper or maybe metal targets.  I want to challenge myself, but I don't want to become a hard core benchrest shooter.  

With that as a goal, what is challenging for shooting a 22lr?  Is putting 4 out of 5 shots in a 4" square/circle at 150 yards challenging?  What level of magnification do I need what I am wanting to do?  I decided to move up to a 3-12 or 4-16 as a step towards more BR level of magnification without compromising my rifles all purpose versatility.  Yet I am wondering if I need even go that high.  Would a 3-9 EFR Leupold give me all the magnification I am looking for or is 12x-16x on top better?

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2011 at 17:07
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Funny you mentioned the two scopes.  I was just coming to the same conclusion myself after researching the effectiveness of quick detach mounts.  I like having a lower power scope for everyday varmint control and plinking and a high power fixed scope for target practice. I am leaning towards just getting a high powered fixed scope and not worry about shooting at 200 yards.  That way I don't have to concern myself about getting a scope with lots of internal elevation.

It seems the higher power target rifles don't have much room for adjustment and the scopes that do are focused on the tactical crowd.  This whole thread has got me to think even more what I want to do. I believe my ultimate goal is to become a more accurate shooter and to challenge myself in a fun way. If my target scope can only reach 125 yards, so be it. There is a lot I can challenge myself with in trying to be accurate within the ballistics of the caliber.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/02/2011 at 18:27
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Wes,FYI I like your taste in weapons.I cut my barrel & recrowned it to 16" & found I got tighter groups out at 100yds.I shoot 40 grn. Wolf & Fed gold match[cheap one]
 
I use a Minox Z5 6-20x50 with Talley one piece.


Edited by stickbow46 - April/02/2011 at 18:30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2011 at 09:02
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Urimaginaryfrnd - What I meant by my statement was I am looking at some of the fixed power scopes like the Weaver T series (24x) or Leupold FX-3 (25x). They don't have enough MOA adjustment (~40) to probably reach out to 200 yards, but that's ok, I'll just shoot at 100 yards or 125 or whatever I can get. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/03/2011 at 15:30
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