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Two scopes for one gun?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2013 at 17:58
jbarnes405 View Drop Down
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New poster here.

I have started shooting prairie dogs and want to start stretching things out more. My aspiration is to get my .223 out as far as I can. I need a scope that I can use on from 50 yards to 1800 with at least 100 moa elevation. The problem I am running into is that with what I want to spend it isn't going to happen.

I looked at a Millett LRS but they are huge and some conflicting reports about the glass. Don't really wanna go here.

I could get a swfa 20x with plenty of elevation but it limits my close prairie dog shooting with my squib loads.

I could get a Mueller APT, but at 14x it limits my 500 yard prairie dogs a little and it only has ~80 moa.

So I though what if I had both scopes, mounted in QD rings and switched them as needed? Is it going to shift my poa too much to make it practical for longer shots without re zeroing?


I want your expert opinions because what I have seen on other sites is you ask a question about $400 optics and they want you to buy a Nightforce. Whereas I see more than a few posts on here about quality lower priced glass.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2013 at 18:20
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What is your max budget?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2013 at 18:27
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Trying to stay below 400, but I also don't want to regret buying something like a millet and regret it later.

That is why I kinda like the 2 scopes idea, if the muller doesn't work out I can find another low end scope and still have a great long range scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2013 at 19:11
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Another option I though of was a red dot mounted on a 45 rail with a red dot for shorter shots but that seems bulky.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2013 at 20:38
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I assume you meant 50 yards to 800 yards, right?

Your budget does not leave all that many options.  If you want to stretch the legs of this rifle a bit, you need a scope with decent glass and reliable tracking.  

In the sub-$400 range, that is a very select group of scopes mostly limited to the Classic SWFA SS scopes.  I would be looking at 10x42, 12x42 or 16x42.

If you want a variable, these are good options for close to your price range:

If you can go up in price a bit more, Vortex HS-T 4-16x44 is a surprisingly nice scope.  I am testing it right now and it is a nicely versatile design with good turrets.  It has a bit more adjustment range than the 6.5-20x44 Viper and better turret feel.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2013 at 21:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 08:55
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No I literally mean 1800. It's not unheard of with a .223;

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php

It needs lots of elevation to get that far and I wouldn't expect great accuracy, but I have the space to try.

I like the HS-T but I just worry about longer shots on p-dogs. I have a 6x24 and found that I mostly used it around 20x.

This is why I thought maybe I could get away with a fixed power for longer ranges and a good value cheaper variable for short medium ranges.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 09:15
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Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3008.5 2.695 1406.6 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.8 0.7 2756.9 2.469 1181.2 0.104 18.3 17.5
200 -3.1 -1.5 3.3 1.6 2516.3 2.254 984.0 0.218 38.4 18.3
300 -11.7 -3.7 7.7 2.5 2287.7 2.049 813.3 0.343 60.4 19.2
400 -26.9 -6.4 14.4 3.4 2071.8 1.856 667.0 0.481 84.6 20.2
500 -50.3 -9.6 23.7 4.5 1867.6 1.673 542.1 0.633 111.5 21.3
600 -83.7 -13.3 36.1 5.7 1673.4 1.499 435.2 0.803 141.4 22.5
700 -129.6 -17.7 52.0 7.1 1488.4 1.333 344.3 0.993 174.8 23.8
800 -191.3 -22.8 72.2 8.6 1313.3 1.176 268.0 1.208 212.6 25.4
900 -273.2 -29.0 97.6 10.4 1151.4 1.031 206.0 1.452 255.5 27.1
1000 -381.4 -36.4 128.6 12.3 1046.1 0.937 170.1 1.728 304.1 29.0
1100 -521.3 -45.3 162.9 14.1 993.5 0.890 153.4 2.022 355.9 30.9
1200 -696.4 -55.4 199.8 15.9 950.5 0.851 140.4 2.332 410.4 32.7
1300 -910.0 -66.8 239.1 17.6 911.8 0.817 129.2 2.655 467.2 34.3
1400 -1165.7 -79.5 280.8 19.1 875.9 0.784 119.2 2.991 526.5 35.9
1500 -1467.0 -93.4 324.9 20.7 842.1 0.754 110.2 3.342 588.2 37.4
1600 -1817.7 -108.5 371.6 22.2 810.1 0.726 102.0 3.707 652.4 38.9
1700 -2222.0 -124.8 420.9 23.6 779.8 0.698 94.5 4.087 719.3 40.4
1800 -2684.2 -142.4 473.0 25.1 750.9 0.673 87.6 4.482 788.9 41.8
1900 -3209.3 -161.3 527.8 26.5 723.4 0.648 81.3 4.894 861.3 43.3
2000 -3802.5 -181.6 585.6 28.0 697.3 0.625 75.6 5.322 936.6 44.7
 
 Yo
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 09:26
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I won't comment on the scope, but will on the anticipated usage.  The article you reference is written by a guy reloading all his own ammo (building recipes from scratch) and running a custom 28" barrel and a heavily modified stock.

If your budget is $400 on the scope, is that because your rifle/reloading budget is $2000?

He was answering "can it be done" and the short answer was "not by most."

The 223 is not designed for that range, just like a 338 Lapua isn't designed for 50 yards and inexpensive ammo.  Match the tool to the job; this is shoehorning a caliber into a role it was never meant to fill.

But it is your money.

And a $400 scope that will get to 1800 yards (with any repeat-ability and accuracy) doesn't exist.

Lastly,  at what ranges are you shooting now.  I have thrown many, many rounds beyond 1000 yards and cringe at the efforts required to shoot 1800, especially with a 223.  

Are you shooting 1800 now with another caliber?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 10:18
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I have no illusions about it being easy to do. I realize the amount of practice/skill it takes to do that. I realize what it takes and how much you have to practice to get that far. I know I wouldn't be able to get there with what I have now. I will probably buy a really nice .224 barrel in the future. That leave me with the option to re chamber as well, .22-243 .22x47 lapua, ect. ect. leaves me with lots of things that can get me as far as I can.

I picked the .223 because it is cheaper to reload than anything else out there. I reload because I have a lot of spare time and little extra cash. I want to put my money into reloading and practicing shooting, not saving for glass.

I am not looking for (1) scope that can go from 50 feet to 2000 yards. I am looking for (1) scope that can take me 500 and (1) that can take me as far as my skill can go. I know I can't find (1) scope that can do both.

I realize that if I spent more on glass I would be better off. But do I need to spend a lot on a scope that I use from 50-300 yards and have a swfa fixed 20x to go the rest of the way, switching as need arises? This is my primary question.

I do appreciate all the responses and love outside the box ideas.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 11:30
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It won't be as easy as swaping just the scopes. 

Lets look at it this way.  0MOA base with a scope that has 100 MOA of adjustment.  For simplisity sake lets say you zero at 100yds while only using 35 MOA of the scopes vertical up travel.  That leaves you with a hypothetical 65MOA left.  That could get you out to about 1200yds (hypothetically).  Even if you added a 30MOA base your only upping an additional 30MOA (in a perfect world) and that will only get you to about 1500.
 
To get to 1800 hypothetically you'd need a scope with about 150MOA of internal adjustment and a canted base as well.  Doubtful that you'd be able to dial it down to shoot at 100 though with that set up. 
 
You'd have to have a capable scope (plenty of adjustment) and canted base for the 1800 and another scope and base for the regular shooting you talk about wanting to do.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 11:53
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This is much closer to the answer I am looking for.

I have a 20moa base already and was thinking Burris signature zee rings could get me a little more slope, but I am thinking that this definitely would make any shorter (>300) shooting out of the question and would probably have to go with a 600 yard or more zero to get anywhere close.

I am going to go with a better scope and just see how far it goes and then worry about going farther in the future.

Probably a Vortex Viper LR, close to what I want to spend with good vertical range.

Looked at a weaver euro/blackhawk! tactical 4-20 for around $50. I like that mag range, but I would like more adjustment but I think there is enough to start working.

Any more suggestion I might have missed for a scope like this?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 12:30
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A 20X $50 scope is going to disappoint, and frustrate, at any range, and especially at long range.

I have had this conversation many, many, many times: better glass beats more magnification EVERY TIME!  I shoot beyond 1000 occasionally and prefer my optics to max out at about 15X, more magnification makes me a worse shooter.

Finally, the money you save reloading a 223 will prove insignificant compared the money you waste making a short-range caliber do what it was not designed for.  Then again, my guess is you can shoot a 223 (with reloads) for a very long time before you build the skill and confidence to shoot it beyond its limits.  Having access to 1800 yards of range does not a 1-mile shooter make.  Beyond 700 yards, it's a whole new game, and wind does things to your bullet that you won't like.  

I'll end with this: set the rifle up for the shot you will be making, not the shot you would like to someday master.  I've been shooting for over 20 years with some of the best gear money can buy (sometimes my money, sometimes the federal government's money) and I don't have the skill to make a 1800 yard shot with a 223.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 12:37
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Originally posted by jbarnes405 jbarnes405 wrote:

I have no illusions about it being easy to do. I realize the amount of practice/skill it takes to do that. I realize what it takes and how much you have to practice to get that far. I know I wouldn't be able to get there with what I have now. I will probably buy a really nice .224 barrel in the future. That leave me with the option to re chamber as well, .22-243 .22x47 lapua, ect. ect. leaves me with lots of things that can get me as far as I can.

I picked the .223 because it is cheaper to reload than anything else out there. I reload because I have a lot of spare time and little extra cash. I want to put my money into reloading and practicing shooting, not saving for glass.

I am not looking for (1) scope that can go from 50 feet to 2000 yards. I am looking for (1) scope that can take me 500 and (1) that can take me as far as my skill can go. I know I can't find (1) scope that can do both.

I realize that if I spent more on glass I would be better off. But do I need to spend a lot on a scope that I use from 50-300 yards and have a swfa fixed 20x to go the rest of the way, switching as need arises? This is my primary question.

I do appreciate all the responses and love outside the box ideas.

Two scopes for $400, capable of doing what you want, pretty much does not exist.

Moreover,  if you start working on it now (developing loads, practicing, etc), it will be quite a while before you can seriously attempt shooting out to a mile.  

I am sure it is a fun challenge, but I am not sure why you are trying to do it with a 0.224' caliber bullet.

Once you start reloading, it makes very little difference which caliber you are using in terms of cost, so you can step up to something with better bullets and longer barrel life, like 6mm or 6.5mm.

Be that as it may, if you really want to make it out to a mile, you need a scope with a lot of adjustment range, reliable turrets and a reticle that will allow you to extend to distance you are shooting to.

Trying to keep this limited to $400 is going to cost you some heartache and in the end you will end up getting a better scope anyway.

So here are your options.

If you insist on staying under $400, get the SS 16x42 and 20x42 with a Mil-Quad reticle:

The vertical line of the reticle gives you an additional 15mrad of holdover compared in addition to the scopes internal adjustment.  Get the scope sighted in at 100 or 200 yards using the hashmark 5mrad above the crosshair.

To get additional cant for the scope, consider buying high end rings:

These will give you additional 40MOA (11.5mrad) of slope.

To get to 1800 yards with a heavy bullet 223, you need somewhere around 40 - 45 mrad of trajectory compensation available.

With a 20MOA base and 40MOA rings, you get around 17mrad.  
The reticle can give you as much as 15mrad.

The scope's internal adjustment will take care of the rest.


Still, if I were you, I would scrounge up the cash for a scope that will give you a bit more versatility.  If I were setting something like this up, the best variable for the money that has the features you want is Sightron S3 6-24x50.


I like mil-based scopes, but you can get the S3 with MOA reticle/clicks as well.

Yes it is more expensive, but it gives you all of the functionality you want and a lot more flexibility to account for light and atmospheric conditions.

ILya


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 13:58
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"Looked at a weaver euro/blackhawk! tactical 4-20 for around $50. I like that mag range, but I would like more adjustment but I think there is enough to start working."

Whoops! I meant $450!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 14:04
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Still, if I were you, I would scrounge up the cash for a scope that will give you a bit more versatility.  If I were setting something like this up, the best variable for the money that has the features you want is Sightron S3 6-24x50.


Yeah, this is the route I am going to be going. I initially started looking at 24x variables. Then I looked at a swfa fixed 20x and thought it would be great for long range, price is right, but it limits me too much.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 15:04
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Originally posted by jbarnes405 jbarnes405 wrote:


Still, if I were you, I would scrounge up the cash for a scope that will give you a bit more versatility.  If I were setting something like this up, the best variable for the money that has the features you want is Sightron S3 6-24x50.


Yeah, this is the route I am going to be going. I initially started looking at 24x variables. Then I looked at a swfa fixed 20x and thought it would be great for long range, price is right, but it limits me too much.

Good call.

In terms of magnification, you may not always want to use 24x.  However, having the ability to dial down to lower magnifications is what makes a difference.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2013 at 21:57
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Check out the sample list. It will allow you to make better use of your money.

http://www.samplelist.com/Riflescopes-C3391.aspx
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