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Trying to balance glass quality and magnification

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 15:22
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So I need some help from everyone on this one.

I am trying to find another scope that is right for me. I have the Vortex 6-24x50 and love the heck out of it, however when aiming at smaller targets further out than 300 yards, I am finding that it is almost too small even when zoomed completely in at 24X's for my liking.

I would like a scope with some more power (higher magnification), however don't want to sacrifice on glass quality and see something through the glass that may be close, but not clear.

What scope would you reccomend? Ideally I'd like to stay under the $600 range for price, but would like to know if what I really want is outside of that range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 15:26
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well i see your budget is $600 but if you want to get away with spending $250, snag up one of the few 6.5-20x44 vortex vipers that are still left. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 15:34
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I would keep my eye on the samplelist for a used Sightron SIII in high magnification if you want more power for that price and still have decent glass quality.  There is only a SII BigSky on there now, http://www.samplelist.com/Sightron-36x42-SII-Big-Sky-Rifle-Scope-DEMO-B-P1511.aspx  but depending on what you will be doing as far as type of shooting the fixed may work. Keep in mind this is fixed and there is no such thing as turnign it down for more light or for closer objects with this one. 
 
The only other think I can think of would be the high power Bushnell elites there are 3 on the SL but i have not heard comment on them at high power


Edited by SVT_Tactical - November/18/2010 at 15:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 15:56
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Originally posted by grimreaper21 grimreaper21 wrote:

well i see your budget is $600 but if you want to get away with spending $250, snag up one of the few 6.5-20x44 vortex vipers that are still left. 


Okay, I am officially confused. I said I wanted more power than my Vortex 6-24x50. Isn't the 6.5-20X44 less powerfull?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 15:58
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

I would keep my eye on the samplelist for a used Sightron SIII in high magnification if you want more power for that price and still have decent glass quality.  There is only a SII BigSky on there now, http://www.samplelist.com/Sightron-36x42-SII-Big-Sky-Rifle-Scope-DEMO-B-P1511.aspx  but depending on what you will be doing as far as type of shooting the fixed may work. Keep in mind this is fixed and there is no such thing as turnign it down for more light or for closer objects with this one. 
 

The only other think I can think of would be the high power Bushnell elites there are 3 on the SL but i have not heard comment on them at high power





I had looked at the Bushnells as well, but didn't know if the glass quality would live up to my expectations or not. Definatly good priced scopes though.

I should have also mentioned that I don't want a fixed powered scope, as I would like to be able to focus at different ranges (anywhere from 100 yards to 600+).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 16:08
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Maybe someone will chime in with experience on them.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 16:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 16:15
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Originally posted by lucytuma lucytuma wrote:

Are you open to a fixed power scope


As mentioned before, no I am not interested in a fixed power scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 16:56
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Originally posted by CALL911 CALL911 wrote:

Originally posted by grimreaper21 grimreaper21 wrote:

well i see your budget is $600 but if you want to get away with spending $250, snag up one of the few 6.5-20x44 vortex vipers that are still left. 


Okay, I am officially confused. I said I wanted more power than my Vortex 6-24x50. Isn't the 6.5-20X44 less powerfull?
  I assumed you own the cheapo $99 crossfire model, because i'm not aware the Viper is made in that size.  You're not going to get high quality zoom on a $99 scope.

Edited by grimreaper21 - November/18/2010 at 16:57
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 18:54
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Okay, looking at keeping a budget, and still have a performing scope here, I am coming to a conclusion that I can't really beat the value of a Bushnell.

My next thing to figure out is which model. My buddy has a 6-24X50 and he highly reccomends it. But I am wondering if the 8-32X40 would be better. Any advice on this one? What is the breakdown difference between the two scopes here?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 19:59
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SVT_Tactical,
 
If you could find a used 4 1/2-30X50 Bushnell 6500 you probably can't do better for the money.  Check out the Line Test somewhere on this scope forum.  So far the only scope at the range better than it was a Minox spotting scope.  It's objective lens is 62 mm.  With both on 30X it was barely better for detail.  It weighs 21 ounces.
 
I have compared this Bushnell with Two Swarovskis before the Z5 came out and neither was as good as the Bushnell for resoloving detail.  That shold tell you haw the lower cost units came out in the comparisons.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 20:19
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To the original poster: 

The scope you have is Vortex Crossfire, which is a fairly low end scope.  Before you try to go to higher power designs, you should be looking at better glass, even if it is slightly lower power.  For example, you will see MUCH more detail through Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50 than through your Crossfire despite its higher magnification.

If you are looking for magnification higher than 24x, there is only one sub-$1000 scope that I can recommend for that: Sightron SIII in either 8-32x56 or 10-50x60 guises.  6-24x50 model is also very good.

I have been quite dissatisfied with Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5-30x50 when the magnification was turned up above 20x.  I think this scope line is at its best with lower magnification 2.5-16x models which are easily among my favourites.

As far as Rich Coyle's recommendation goes, this has been covered ad nauseum on other threads: his eyes are very different from everyone else's and his recommendations, while well-intended, are not supported by the experience of 99% OF SENTIENT HUMAN BEINGS ON THIS PLANET WHO HAVE EVER LOOKED THROUGH A RIFLESCOPE.

ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 20:34
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

To the original poster: 

The scope you have is Vortex Crossfire, which is a fairly low end scope.  Before you try to go to higher power designs, you should be looking at better glass, even if it is slightly lower power.  For example, you will see MUCH more detail through Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50 than through your Crossfire despite its higher magnification.

If you are looking for magnification higher than 24x, there is only one sub-$1000 scope that I can recommend for that: Sightron SIII in either 8-32x56 or 10-50x60 guises.  6-24x50 model is also very good.

I have been quite dissatisfied with Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5-30x50 when the magnification was turned up above 20x.  I think this scope line is at its best with lower magnification 2.5-16x models which are easily among my favourites.

As far as Rich Coyle's recommendation goes, this has been covered ad nauseum on other threads: his eyes are very different from everyone else's and his recommendations, while well-intended, are not supported by the experience of 99% OF SENTIENT HUMAN BEINGS ON THIS PLANET WHO HAVE EVER LOOKED THROUGH A RIFLESCOPE.

ILya
 
Well, koshkin, if you ever get to Grants Pass, give me a call.  I will alow you to compare this 6500 with my NightForce or what ever you bring.
 
Depending on what Leupold comes out with in their line, this spring I will have another Z5 or it. 
 
The first 6500 I recieved was better than what you have experienced.  It was blury above 25X.  I returned it for warentee work.  The one they sent be was great above 10X but blury on the bottom end.  I returned it for a full refund including the mail insurance.  I waited a few months and purchased another, which is what I now have, giving the pipe line a chance for the original manufactored scope to get cleaned out and another manufacturing run to come to the market.  Eveyone who has looked through it and compared it with outhers have been surprised.
 
The Z5 I tested last week was better than the 6500 only in low light.  I sent the it back because it was not as good as my 6500 when both were set on their lowest magnification.  Would you keep something you paid $1659 when it was not at least as good as someting else you can get for $700?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 21:32
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My 6500 2.5-16X42T is great for what I do with it, but I'll tell ya Rich if you don't like the Nightforce.  I'd be willing to trade you for it.   Considering I plan on upgrading to a Nightforce.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 21:40
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Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

My 6500 2.5-16X42T is great for what I do with it, but I'll tell ya Rich if you don't like the Nightforce.  I'd be willing to trade you for it.   Considering I plan on upgrading to a Nightforce.
 
Steelbenz,
 
Take a look at the line test thead and learn I like my NightForce very much.  It kicked butt on the Z5 5-25X52 Swarovski and my Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50.  One of my gunsmith's told it is the finest scoppe he has ever handled.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 22:42
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I was at the range the other day and met a gentelman who had recently purchased a Nightforce, he had it on a Savage target rifle he had built. The scope rang out of windage to the left at 100 yards. The scope was a 8-32x40 and on 8 power witch I thought would be the cleanest resolution on the scope it had an extreemly clear center but it had a rather wide ring of blurr around the edges, is that blurr comon with this brand? It was the first NF scope I have ever looked through and I was sorely dissapointed by this one being defective, it obviously was as he removed the scope from it's rings and placed a WOTAC scope in their and it sighted perfectly.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/18/2010 at 23:34
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Originally posted by Rich Coyle Rich Coyle wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

To the original poster: 

The scope you have is Vortex Crossfire, which is a fairly low end scope.  Before you try to go to higher power designs, you should be looking at better glass, even if it is slightly lower power.  For example, you will see MUCH more detail through Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50 than through your Crossfire despite its higher magnification.

If you are looking for magnification higher than 24x, there is only one sub-$1000 scope that I can recommend for that: Sightron SIII in either 8-32x56 or 10-50x60 guises.  6-24x50 model is also very good.

I have been quite dissatisfied with Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5-30x50 when the magnification was turned up above 20x.  I think this scope line is at its best with lower magnification 2.5-16x models which are easily among my favourites.

As far as Rich Coyle's recommendation goes, this has been covered ad nauseum on other threads: his eyes are very different from everyone else's and his recommendations, while well-intended, are not supported by the experience of 99% OF SENTIENT HUMAN BEINGS ON THIS PLANET WHO HAVE EVER LOOKED THROUGH A RIFLESCOPE.

ILya
 
Well, koshkin, if you ever get to Grants Pass, give me a call.  I will alow you to compare this 6500 with my NightForce or what ever you bring.
>implying that your 6500 must be a special one off the assembly line, because I know for damn sure he has WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY MORE experience looking through these scopes than you, and he knows what he is talking about. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2010 at 06:46
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QUOTE]
>implying that your 6500 must be a special one off the assembly line, because I know for damn sure he has WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY MORE experience looking through these scopes than you, and he knows what he is talking about. 
[/QUOTE]
 
Let's see now.  He has way more experience looking through scopes than I do.  That's why I generally respect his opinion.
 
Does that change the fact that I rejected two 6500's prior to keeping the one I have?  Does that change the fact that I rejected the Z5 because it was not as good as the 6500 on its lowest setting and generally no better than my Bushnell except in low light?
 
Anyone should be able to look through a $1659 scope and see emediately that it is better than a NightForce or a Bushnell.  It doen't take years of education or experience to notice this one is not.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2010 at 11:46
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Originally posted by CALL911 CALL911 wrote:

Okay, looking at keeping a budget, and still have a performing scope here, I am coming to a conclusion that I can't really beat the value of a Bushnell.

My next thing to figure out is which model. My buddy has a 6-24X50 and he highly reccomends it. But I am wondering if the 8-32X40 would be better. Any advice on this one? What is the breakdown difference between the two scopes here?


Okay fellas, can anyone please put aside your differences and help me out here. Again, what is the big differences between these two scopes, and which out of these two would you reccomend above the other and why?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2010 at 11:51
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32x40mm.  You will have less than 1mm exit pupil at high power.  That means the image will be very very dark, almost like you are looking through heavy tint.  The eyebox will be extremely critical, meaning your eye will have to be lined up perfectly behind the band of light coming through the scope.  The slightest movement of your eye and the image will black out because your pupil will move out of that band of light. 

Also, Bushnell just does not have good enough glass to give you a good image at that magnification.  24x is really asking a lot for 4200 quality glass. 

I have a VOrtex Viper 6.5-20x and they have pretty comparable glass to the 4200 line.  And it is really lacking at 18 and 20x IMO.  At 16x and down it looks great, but above that all the issues I talked about above become pretty apparent.  A 32x scope with mid grade glass and only 40mm objective is just not going to be that great of a scope. 

But if you are just using this to shoot off a bench in daylight those issues you could probably live with. 


Edited by supertool73 - November/19/2010 at 11:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2010 at 13:32
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Originally posted by CALL911 CALL911 wrote:

however when aiming at smaller targets further out than 300 yards, I am finding that it is almost too small even when zoomed completely in at 24X's for my liking.

Out of curiosity, what sort of targets are you shooting at?  Anyway, I'll echo what others have said about glass quality.  20X, 24X, is really a lot when you have good glass.

The best glass I've tested near your price range is the Weaver Tactical 4-20X50.    http://swfa.com/Weaver-4-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P40579.aspx .  That'll probably surprise some people but yes, the glass on them really is that good.   I've used mine for 1000+ yd shooting quite a bit now and you need some pretty small targets before you'd find it lacking.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/19/2010 at 14:38
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just took my viper out today at 20x and i was able to see almost to what i would estimate is around a mile away.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/20/2010 at 11:45
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Thanks supertool for the input as that was what I was looking for. I don't mean any offense on here, but I am trying to decide between these two bushnells now, so really just trying to get more info on both or either of them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/20/2010 at 21:25
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6-24x would be my pick
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/20/2010 at 21:33
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Yeah, I think I am leaning towards the 6-24X50 as you mentioned as the 40mm objective of the other optic would not be as good.
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