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trump card?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2010 at 22:40
mgraham View Drop Down
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Ok so when and if does larger objective trump glass quality on low light transmission? I know if you are comparing a 50mm barska to a 40mm leica the leica would be hands down. Maybe a good comparison would be comparing a vxII, vxIII, Nightforce, conquest, etc. 50mm or 56mm to a 40mm alpha glass or any other comparison would do. I am specifically directing this towards low light hunting scenario's. Hopefully some actual comparisons will be noted..
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2010 at 07:14
jonoMT View Drop Down
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A comparison like that could be a reasonable test, if conducted under fairly rigorous conditions. Just hard to do unless someone has access to an assortment of optics. In general, if a scope has really good glass it also comes with better features and construction. So I'd always be looking for the smallest scope that can do what I ask of it and would be more concerned with realistic scenarios for using it. For example, a 2.5-10X32 might not seem like much scope at dawn or dusk, but are you going to need much magnification at those times?

A scope like that can still operate @ 5X with as much light transmission as most of us can use. That is enough to comfortably shoot out 200 yards. If it was getting dark, I'd be leery of taking a shot on an animal I might not be able to retrieve if it was farther away anyway. If it's getting light out and the target seems about to evaporate into the woods, I might consider a longer shot. It only takes about 15-20 minutes at middle latitudes to go from dark to almost full daylight.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2010 at 07:33
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Originally posted by mgraham mgraham wrote:

Ok so when and if does larger objective trump glass quality on low light transmission? I know if you are comparing a 50mm barska to a 40mm leica the leica would be hands down. Maybe a good comparison would be comparing a vxII, vxIII, Nightforce, conquest, etc. 50mm or 56mm to a 40mm alpha glass or any other comparison would do. I am specifically directing this towards low light hunting scenario's. Hopefully some actual comparisons will be noted..
your confusing light transmission (which is also affected by coatings) with resolution and contrast
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2010 at 09:55
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First you must be able to see the reticle so heavy reticles and illumination will get you an aiming point.  Second you need a power range that in combination with objective size gives you a 7mm exit eye pupil EX:  6x42, 7x50, 8x56.  With a variable you can dial it down to those powers. Next the better the glass the more clearly you will see.   Just remember that the best glass in the world like Swarovski in combination with a thin reticle that you cant find in low light wont get you on target. Thats why they make shotguns and buckshot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2010 at 10:03
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Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:


A scope like that can still operate @ 5X with as much light transmission as most of us can use. That is enough to comfortably shoot out 200 yards. If it was getting dark, I'd be leery of taking a shot on an animal I might not be able to retrieve if it was farther away anyway. If it's getting light out and the target seems about to evaporate into the woods, I might consider a longer shot. It only takes about 15-20 minutes at middle latitudes to go from dark to almost full daylight.


Even though technically it may provide all the eye can use, the one with the bigger objective is going to be brighter.   Just ask the guys like ccoker and 1911man that hunt hogs at night with the Trijicon scopes.  THey say the 2.5-10x56 is noticeably brighter than the 3-9x40.  Really not much diff in mag, but a lot diff in objective.  But the trade off of course is weight

Plus even in low light a higher mag will give you a more detailed image and will allow to see more clearly.  Up to a certain point in exit pupil that is.  So if a person is willing to deal with the added weight/size then you will have a very good low light benefit over the smaller objective. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2010 at 11:24
jonoMT View Drop Down
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I agree. There's no doubt, given two scopes with comparable quality glass and magnification ranges, that the one with a larger objective will perform better. I've seen that looking down my alley at night with my Premier vs. my NF (well, the Premier has better glass too) at 4.5X (the highest magnification where the NF would still have an exit pupil above 7mm). But as much as I like the Premier, I prefer the NF for hunting. It is so much smaller and half the weight.

Ultimately, we all have to decide for ourselves what will work best, given the equipment's purpose and our physical abilities and limitations. I always appreciate having different opinions because what should be encouraged on this site is getting people to think through their options before dropping the bucks on gear.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2010 at 18:34
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Originally posted by mgraham mgraham wrote:

Ok so when and if does larger objective trump glass quality on low light transmission? I know if you are comparing a 50mm barska to a 40mm leica the leica would be hands down. Maybe a good comparison would be comparing a vxII, vxIII, Nightforce, conquest, etc. 50mm or 56mm to a 40mm alpha glass or any other comparison would do. I am specifically directing this towards low light hunting scenario's. Hopefully some actual comparisons will be noted..
 
Yesterday after shooting at 200 yards I decided to see if there was a noticable difference in the optics I had with me.  I fired a few rounds with the .375-.416 Rem.  I looked through the Leica 1200 range finder which has a 7X21 lens.  I could easily see the holes.  Then I looked through the 6 1/2X32 Vortex Raptor.  Instantly I thought it was better.  But I realized it was because it was so much brighter.  Then I looked at the holes.  They were definately easier to see with the 7X21 dispite it being a monocular compared to the Raptor being a binocular.  The glass in trhe Leica is apparently better.  Then I brought up the 2 1/2-8X32 Leupold EER on the .454.  On 4X I could not see the holes.  On 4 1/2X I could barely make them out; only because I knew where they were.  On 5X I could see them as easily as I could in the 7X21.
 
We can see form this small comparison that the brighter binocular did not do as well as the monocular with higher quality glass.  I guess the Leupold benefited from both quality glass and size of objective.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2010 at 09:11
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."



Edited by Rancid Coolaid - November/30/2010 at 09:46
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2010 at 11:47
jonoMT View Drop Down
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anecdoti?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2010 at 11:51
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anec-DOH!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2010 at 11:59
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Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

anecdoti?


That's funny.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2010 at 12:25
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Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

anecdoti?


I have not (yet) addressed what it "is", just what it is not.

To the original poster, never sacrifice glass quality for greater magnification or objective diameter, it never works out well, unless you are mostly blind, then it seems to work great.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2010 at 13:42
jonoMT View Drop Down
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But wouldn't a mostly blind guy be only half as blind if he closes one eye while evaluating the equipment? In other words, he must experience a 100% improvement in vision then, or even more convincingly stated, vision that's twice as good. Big Smile
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