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Trued Remington Action vs Custom

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 09:14
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All the posts recently on custom builds has me thinking about a similar build in either 6.5 Creedmoor or 260 Rem.

Objective is a starter rifle for precision rifle matches that would double as a long range hunter/predator rifle.  I'm bouncing around the idea of just rebarreling one of my Savages with a Bartlein, Shilen or similar quality barrel maker, going with a custom build from the likes of Redhawk Rifles or Southern Precision or just buying a Cooper.

What is the advantage of going with manufacturers like Defiance, Surgeon or Stiller vs a trued Remington action?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 09:47
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First, on a trued Remington: if you take a $500 action and spend $500 truing it, you end up with a $500 action.  Many don't buy trued actions without LOTS of documentation, and even then don't pay much for the truing.  
Additionally, there are options on most custom actions that are additional work for a custom action (side bolt release, extractor upgrade, etc), that's more money on your $500 action.

On custom actions like Defiance, Surgeon, Stiller: they have the features many want and maintain their value better than a trued Remington.

Last: you might have seen this recommendation, but consider buying a Tikka T3 (if you are okay with a long action on even a short action cartridge.) Tikka actions are very smooth, very well built, and I have not yet seen one that needed to be trued.  The Tikka action also includes many features of the higher end custom actions.
I have built a few now on Tikka actions and am extremely happy.  The trigger is quite good, and stock or chassis options abound.  The factory barrels are also very good, I have  CTR I am shooting out the 308 barrel, then will rebarrel in another caliber later.

Some may disagree, but I have sold custom and Remington trued, and custom actions hold their value better, or that has been my experience.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 11:22
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Thanks RC.  I keep seeing comments like trued action, blueprinted action...and not entirely sure what that means.  I understand lapping lugs, but admittedly I'm familiar with the other terms but in name only.

I bought my son a Tikka T3 for his birthday and agree it seems like a sweet rifle.  He is a little backwards and shoots LH, so my experience is limited to watching him shoot it.

Smart money, since this is a starter, is to rebarrel one of my Savages since they consistently shoot in the .6 to .8 area, but still have that itch.

Red Hawk Rifles start out at $2395 with the trued & bedded Remington Action, Bartlein barrel, Timney 510 trigger and B&C M40 stock.

Expect going the custom route from the likes of GAP and Southern Precision would around $3000 for something like GAP Non Typical and quickly go north from there.

Non typical actually looks like a decent option.  Templar hunter short action, Bartlein barrel for only $600 more and likely to maintain its value.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 12:21
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A while back, I spent a fair amount of time considering a trued action vs a custom.  i spent a lot of timeand effort on it.  I tried everything I could get my hands on.  

I ended up with this rifle:



It is not cheap, but by the time you are done building your custom rifle, you will not be far off of this.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 12:29
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Desert Tactical are nice rifles and ability to switch calibers is nice feature.  I've used bullpups like the Tavor and Aug, but never a bolt action.  I'll have to explore that option.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 12:41
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Good and insightful thread. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 12:52
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I had a Remington action that I had a Lilja barrel put on.  The gun smith said his words "I squared things up a little" what ever that means. But he did not blue print it.  But that thing would shoot as good of groups as my Stiller Tac30 action with Obermyer barrel.   I could literally shoot 1 hole 5 shot groups at 100 yards with it.  My stiller shoots amazing too, but I spent a whole lot more on the stiller setup for sure. 

But that being said, I like that I bought the Stiller.  With it, I know everything is good. 

Where most of the accuracy comes from the barrel unless you are a serious comp shooter I often wonder if it is worth the money we all spend on these fancy actions.  There are so many other variables that can make a huge diff (bullets, powder charge, primers, brass, brass prep, shooter error, wind etc.) it makes one wonder if the few % more accuracy you may gain with a expensive action is even worth bothering. 

Where the Savages have a floating bolt head, my understanding is truing them is not necessary.  So you could build one of those and not have that expense. 

Bighorn actions also have floating bolt heads.  If I ever build another custom one of those would be at the top of my list. 

Its the same with ARs.  I built an AR with all the nicest billet upper and lower, fancy carrier group etc.  Then I build another with a basic forged upper and lower, standard $120 carrier group.  Put the same barrel on both of them.  Shooting the same load they both shot 1/2 moa groups out to 500 yards.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 13:20
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That is definitely true: using the best barrel will make or break accuracy.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 13:29
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I had a factory Remington PSS that I sold to REMF a few years ago, that rifle had the stock barrel, nothing done to the action, a Timney trigger, and it sat in the original H&S stock; that gun put up more than a few sub 3" groups at the 600 yard line, it was the most accurate factory gun I have owned.  That said, I've owned many, many more Remingtons with factory barrel and none have been able to keep up with that one.

This is why I tell people, if you get a great factory gun, keep it!

On the AR comment, the difference, in my experience, is seen when you push them hard.  Most people don't push bolt guns, so there is a difference in that respect.  Usually more expensive ARs are made with better quality materials.  Take a $3000 gun and a $900 gun and run 1,000 rounds through both in an afternoon and you'll know which gun cost more and why.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 14:24
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I don't completely agree with that either.  I am no AR expert by no means, but I have built and shot enough of them now that I don't think you have to spend $3000 to get a good reliable AR.  Most of the expense of ARs these days are all the "fluff" we add to them.  $250 for a hand guard.  $100 for a gas block, adds up quick.  A fancy $100 gas block really doesn't make it run any better than the A2 sight that came on it.  But they do have their benefits if you need an adjustable one for a suppressor or something.
 
You can buy a basic BCM upper for $700ish or a basic Daniel Defense upper for $800ish slap it on a decent lower and it will run with anything out there reliability wise.  But I like a little "fluff" for mine so I usually spend a bit more on extras.  And maybe $3000 was just the number you threw out.  But I do completely agree quality parts will obviously be better for reliability.  But often times we are paying for a lot more than the quality part.  Two carriers made of out or exactly the same materials to the same specs and BCM charges $160 while JP charges over $300.  I will stick with the BCM.  Or spend $450 on a hammer forged Noveski made by FN or buy a $300 BCM hammer forged barrel made by FN.  You can buy a Seekins barrel which are hand lapped Rock Creek barrels for for $250 or spend $500 on a Noveski that is similar.  

At some point we are just wasting our money.  Really the price diff between a good AR and a basic AR is small, maybe a couple hundred is all.  Which is the cost to upgrade the materials used on the important parts.  A lot of the cost is just the extras we all like, but they have little if any affect on the reliability of the rifle. 

But back to the topic.  I was specifically referring to accuracy with my AR example.  The White Oak barrels I used for both of them is what made them accurate.  All the other parts in my 2 samples didn't seem to make a diff. 


Edited by supertool73 - March/25/2016 at 14:31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 15:07
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Here are some videos on truing actions. 



This is a series of videos













Edited by supertool73 - March/25/2016 at 15:24
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 17:10
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I'm not trying to bash. But it's still a Remington.

FNH, Steyr, SAKO, Tikka and I know I catch crap for it but CZ 750 and 550 and be done. No truing No fitting No bother.
Out of the box.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 23:21
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I have built a number of comp rifles on Remington actions and it is the action I prefer for my personal builds. Recently a friend asked me to build a comp rifle on a Defiance action and I was eager to do so. Wanting to see first hand what the specific advantages (if any) where over what I could do with a Rem action. First impression of that action was " well it has everything you could want from all the other actions combined". Integrated barrel lug, scope rail, Mauser style bolt release, heavy construction, bolt is smooth as glass and locks up great. But is that going to show up at the range?? Went with a Krieger barrel, chambered to 7mm-08, Accuracy International chassis and Jewel trigger. Took the 28" X 1.25 barrel blank and put my signature contour on it, fluted it and matched one of my custom hunter brakes for it and locked it down in the receiver. It bolted in the chassis after some minor mill work for the Jewel trigger and it was ready for scope and live rounds. He topped it with a nice vortex and loaded several test rounds. Gotta say I was impressed and very pleased with its performance. Ofcourse with that kinda investment it had better perform right!! It is one of those that will shoot anything you feed it pretty well but, after about 200 rds of testing Berger, A-Max, SST, ELD, Sierra and each one with varying loads of Varget, XBR and IMR 4350 he settled on the 162 ELD with XBR and today he put two rounds in a 3" circle a 1K. No it hasn't done that consistently "yet" but he still has a ways to go in reading wind and adjusting to temp, pressure and all that fun stuff. I have built Rem's that shoot that well with the right round but only a couple do close to it with just about any load. All that to say, Not counting the scope all parts and labor it is a 5,800.00 rifle that will serve him very well in comps and I would love to have one just like it. But I'm not willing to spend that much for my personal rifles. He can afford it and I am sure that he is very happy with it. So custom actions In my opinion are a good investment that will help you compete with the top shooters "PROVIDED". You have the skill/discipline, a scope that is up to the task and the ability to load or atleast get the right ammo to reach it's full potential. But you will on occasion be competing against someone who has an ole Rem that has been tuned or tweeked or is just one of those out of the box shooters that everybody hopes to someday stumble across. Of all the custom actions mentioned I would have no problem recommending the Defiance for a high end custom build. Cha-ching!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2016 at 04:00
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So do u think the axtion is responsible for it liking multiple rounds? I would have thought the barrel, chamber, and throat played a bigger role in that. But i am certainly limited in my knowledge there.

I have a friend who had a custom build on a surgeon with a bartlien barrel and his was crazy picky. I fhink he tried 5 powders and 5 or 6 bullets before he found one it liked. He was pretty disappointed in his build.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2016 at 11:26
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I don't completely agree with that either.  I am no AR expert by no means, but I have built and shot enough of them now that I don't think you have to spend $3000 to get a good reliable AR.  Most of the expense of ARs these days are all the "fluff" we add to them.  $250 for a hand guard.  $100 for a gas block, adds up quick.  A fancy $100 gas block really doesn't make it run any better than the A2 sight that came on it.  But they do have their benefits if you need an adjustable one for a suppressor or something.
 
You can buy a basic BCM upper for $700ish or a basic Daniel Defense upper for $800ish slap it on a decent lower and it will run with anything out there reliability wise.  But I like a little "fluff" for mine so I usually spend a bit more on extras.  And maybe $3000 was just the number you threw out.  But I do completely agree quality parts will obviously be better for reliability.  But often times we are paying for a lot more than the quality part.  Two carriers made of out or exactly the same materials to the same specs and BCM charges $160 while JP charges over $300.  I will stick with the BCM.  Or spend $450 on a hammer forged Noveski made by FN or buy a $300 BCM hammer forged barrel made by FN.  You can buy a Seekins barrel which are hand lapped Rock Creek barrels for for $250 or spend $500 on a Noveski that is similar.  

At some point we are just wasting our money.  Really the price diff between a good AR and a basic AR is small, maybe a couple hundred is all.  Which is the cost to upgrade the materials used on the important parts.  A lot of the cost is just the extras we all like, but they have little if any affect on the reliability of the rifle. 

But back to the topic.  I was specifically referring to accuracy with my AR example.  The White Oak barrels I used for both of them is what made them accurate.  All the other parts in my 2 samples didn't seem to make a diff. 




Just the number I threw out. Keep in mind a good stock and good trigger have you in the ballpark of $300 before you even put the lower together. I agree that rail and gas block don't make it more reliable, but they do make it more useable

On the friend who went through 5 powders and projectiles, that sounds off. My custom guns are the least picky I own.


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - March/27/2016 at 12:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2016 at 14:37
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Can't say that is completely due to the custom action. I think some Rem actions are for some reason tighter in tolerances and maybe even better steel. The Defiance action started where I have to go with most standard actions. I checked all the basics and found that I could go alittle further lapping the bolt lugs and I checked the receiver face and it was true. Things that I expect from top end components. I think the integrated barrel lug did add benefit as it eliminated indexing the lug and added additional thread for the barrel to seat. I also think the integrated scope rail added overall strength to the system and those two together with a heavy varmint contour help keep the harmonics from being an issue. Which is why I think some rifles are picky about what they will shoot. I have heard mixed thoughts about Bartlien and have never used any myself. A quality chassis or stock is key as well. I built a 7mm WSM in a rush for a comp a while back and didn't have time to get the stock I wanted. I took a Rem BDL synthetic and pillar bedded it and free floated the barrel. It shot amazingly well. For that one comp. After about 250 rds I think the bedding turned loose and the point of impact would wonder from here to there and back at random. It would still group the same but the group would shift as much as 4' at 200 yds. I finally got the stock I wanted and problem solved. I've always been one who likes to push things to their limits. I enjoy taking Rem and Mauser actions and building above average shooters. I found with this Defiance build I was under some pressure. If this one didn't shoot especially well with all these top of the line components it would point directly at me. Thankfully my build theory has proven reliable and I continue to learn more as I go. I do say that the Defiance action, this one was the "Deviant" mid length stainless is one that a could see no room for improvement. If I were to design a action that one has everything I would want.

I have hit a wall recently though on a AR-10 I built for 1K comps. But that has produced some good contacts and another opportunity to learn.



Edited by Sgt. D - March/26/2016 at 14:44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2016 at 18:08
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Wow, so you had to lap the bolt lugs on the defiance?

On my friends sugeon, i think something is going on there as well. My stiller obermyer combo has shot super well with every load i have tried. Powder charge doesn't seem to have much of an affect
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/27/2016 at 11:14
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Yea, That surprised me some too. I e-mailed them about it, waiting for a response. Probably  an oversight but one that I'm sure they would want to not let happen again. The seem to be very quality aware/motivated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 07:00
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Preordered a BigHorn TL3 action that is due out in Jun and just sent in an order for Manners to build me a T3 with their mini-chassis.  I have an X-Caliber 6.5 Creedmoor barrel already and probably opt for the Timney 510 or Calvin Elite trigger.

Now it is just a matter of waiting for the pieces to come in.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 15:19
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Keep us in the loop, Mike. Folks like me live vicariously through folks like you.  Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 17:44
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Dang that should be nice.  I like what I read about the big horn actions. 

Sgt, let us know what defiance says.  I'm curious for sure.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 17:47
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I'm taking bets on which comes first, the action or stock.  BigHorn anticipates start shipping in Jul and I expect I'm pretty far down on the pre-order list.  My bet is the action.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/31/2016 at 17:54
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Looks like they made some neat improvements on the TL3.  That should be nice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2016 at 22:31
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I love my trued and blue-printed Remington. But I have thought of getting a true custom, but the one I want, is really expensive, and not available yet. The Mausingfield long-action from ARC, with a LRI chambered barrel in 300 win mag, all bedded into a Manners stock, probably. My fantasy hasn't quite decided on the stock yet.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2016 at 06:35
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Most Remington 700 actions from the 90's on need more than just truing up the receiver. Many have bolt timing and lug engagement issues that also need work for accuracy potential.

When you add up the cost of all the gunsmith work needed for an average 700 action one would be better off getting a true custom action like a Borden, Stiller or Defiant that already has the work done and holds it value much better.
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