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Trouble in scope paradise

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 09:37
shooter4 View Drop Down
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I bought a fine fine scope recently, a Zeiss 6.5-20x50mm and mounted it on a heavy barrell Sako 308. Totally emptied my wallett.

But there is a problem - I am unable to hold tight groups. They spread over ca 2inch wide box on 100 yards.  Hell, I can shoot tighter groups with my 22 caliber on that range. It seems that its quite random where the bullets hit. Im trying to see where the problem is. Ive shot 40-50 shots and seem to be unable to get better results from a bench rest. The rifle is accurate, I had better control over it (with another scope). This new scope is of course high end stuff, so are the mounts (sako opti lok). Ammunition is Winchester 100grain of the shelf - but I think its a decent accuracy ammo. I noticed that the space between the barrell and scope is 1mm. To me it seems super tight but I asked a gunsmith when I mounted it and he said it was good and enough.  So the question remains - WHY these poor groups? 
 
a) Is something wrong (loose) in the scope?
b) Did I mount it incorrectly?
c) Do I tense up (loose aim) with the high recoil of this rifle (I tend to close my eyes)?
d) Is it possible the barrell (heavy barrell) expands and hits the bottom of the scope?
e) Is the high magnification causing me problems?
 
Or.........that Im a poor shooter?  Im ready to accept that - if I cant find any other solution. But like I said, I hold pretty decent groups (hole in hole on 50yds with 22 caliber) and have shot much better and more controlled groups with my heavy barrell 308 when it had another much cheaper scope. So Im hopeful to find a solution and step up my performance.
 
Now guys - Id really like your opinion here
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 09:59
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100 grain bullets don't sound right for a 308?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 10:01
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he must mean 180gr.

to answer your mounting space question, as long as the scope isnt touching the barrel your fine.
sounds to me like it may be a you problem, you mentioned you flinch when you shoot, that could very well be the problem. maybe you need to use a set of ear plugs and a set of ear muffs over top of them to make it quieter. i started to do that last year and i noticed a big difference in my accuracy.


Edited by pyro6999 - March/06/2009 at 10:04
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 10:06
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Have you shot THIS ammo before with a differant scope, with better results? 
In other words, is this ammo proven in THIS rifle?


Edited by cheaptrick - March/06/2009 at 10:08
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 10:11
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(I tend to close my eyes)?
 
Sounds to me what pyro said is correct.  You're anticipating the shot and flinching.  Do you have a friend who is comfortable with your 308 and could shoot to check.  Doesn't matter if his point of impact is different as long as he groups tight.  If it still scatters then you have some more checking to do.


Edited by Dogger - March/06/2009 at 10:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 10:35
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Did you have it lapped and used lock-tite.If you think the scope is the problem just swap scopes and mount your Zeiss on another rifle and see how it shoots.I believe you need to get use to the newer set up and practice.They sell some nice rifle rests like the led sled which cushions the recoil.If your flinching this item would get you tight groups at 100 yards solving your issued with 2 inch groups at 100 yards.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 10:35
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Well, as you said, you had better control with it using the other scope so it may well be a mounting issue or (unlikely for a Zeiss) a problem with the scope internals. Are you certain that the reticle is leveled (square to the action)? You might want to take it to a good gunsmith and have the shop mount it.

Aside from that, I recommend shooting a lot of .22 LR. It's economical and great for getting conditioned to ignore recoil. I find that I can put so many rounds of .22 downrange without any discomfort that my aiming and bolt cycling improve. And then when I go back to the .308 I just shoot right through the recoil as if it wasn't there at all.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 11:17
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If I'm reading your post correctly you've shot this rifle before so flinching is less likely of the possible problems. If you shot this ammo before, which is also likely, then that can be moved down the list. The first place to start is determining what has changed. In this case it's the scope and mount. An internally defective Zeiss is rare and can also be moved down a notch. This to me leaves the mount or mounting of the scope as the most likely place to start. If you're not confident doing this yourself I'd take it to a gunsmith for remounting. NOT a store clerk. If the points of impact are completely random I'm guesing something is simply loose.
  • loose scope
  • loose mount
  • loose reticle
  • fouling
  • ammo
  • gun
  • shooter
IMHO


Edited by jetwrnch - March/06/2009 at 11:22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 12:32
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Winchester does not make 100 grain ammo for a .308 what did you do buy .243 ammo?

X2432   243 Winchester   100 gr. Super-X® Power-Point®

< = name=chkS308ETA-1-1>   S308ETA   308 Winchester   150 gr. Supreme® E-Tip   Add To Wishlist Compare Items
  < = name=chkSBST308-1-1>   SBST308   308 Winchester   150 gr. Supreme® Ballistic Silvertip®   Add To Wishlist Compare Items
  < = name=chkSBST308A-1-1>   SBST308A   308 Winchester   168 gr. Supreme® Ballistic Silvertip®   Add To Wishlist Compare Items
  < = name=chkSXP308-1-1>   SXP308   308 Winchester   150 gr. Supreme Elite™ XP3®   Add To Wishlist Compare Items
  < = name=chkUSA3081-1-1>   USA3081   308 Winchester   147 gr. USA Full Metal Jacket   Add To Wishlist Compare Items
  < = name=chkX3083-1-1>   X3083   308 Winchester   180 gr. Super-X® Silvertip®   Add To Wishlist Compare Items
  < = name=chkX3085-1-1>   X3085   308 Winchester   150 gr. Super-X® Power-Point®   Add To Wishlist Compare Items
  < = name=chkX3086-1-1>   X3086   308 Winchester   180 gr. Super-X® Power-Point® <
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 13:14
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Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

100 grain bullets don't sound right for a 308?
 
NO KIDDING
 
I think you would have to hand load it to get anything lower wieght than 147 gr.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 13:18
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As mentioned by Urfriend....check to see you aren't shooting 243 in a 308 compare the ammo visually with a known 308 round sounds dumb but what the heck!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 15:04
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wow, that would bad

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 15:05
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+1 on checking to make sure it's not .243 ammo!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 15:06
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Wouldn't keyholing and larger spread be evident? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 15:09
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i would suspect he would have a hard time hitting paper at all, 6mm to 7.62mm is a big difference. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 15:11
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True but always start problem solving with the simplest explanations first.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 15:14
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 Had a friend tried(not on purpose).25-06's in his .270 Win.  He said it wasn't accurate. In fact I don't even know if he got a group he could measure.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 16:43
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Quote) (I tend to close my eyes)? Quote)
 
Like Dogger mentioned. What ever the reason, if your closing your eyes that simply has to stop. I know some 308's can kick the             out of ya, cause I had one that did. Couldn't get rid of it fast enough. I have a friend who I hate to say, has more money than since and is always buying heavy hitters. The last one was a 338 and he usually comes to me to get them zeroed. I only do it cause my custom shooting bench is similar to a led sled and I don't have to put the thing on my shoulder. But its a waste of time cause he will never hit what he shoots at. I've watched him close his eyes every time. I know that 338 is stompin his butt cause it raised my bench every time I shot it. The 308 is a great cal. and if you like it maybe try another rifle. I've shot a Rem BDL in 308 and 7mag and they just hit too hard for me to enjoy shooting. I did find that Ruger could build these and the recoil was not an issue. What ever you do, the eye closing has to stop before you know if there is a problem anywhere else. Good Luck! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 16:59
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My 700 is in .308 and I wouldn't give her up for love nor money.  I've never shot a 100 gr bullet out of it, can't say my remmy would group with it either though!!!  150 is as low as I go.

Edited by Steelbenz - March/06/2009 at 17:00
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 17:20
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For a .308 with a 100gr bullet, I would think your rate of twist would have to be something like 1:16 or 1:17.  I am fairly certain you are not anywhere close to that.  If you are actually shooting .308 100gr, I am surprised you are getting that good a group.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 18:49
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Don't rule the scope out just because it's a Zeiss. From the description it sounds like a Conquest, and I had a 6.5-20x Conquest that acted just like that on a very accurate .240 Weatherby. In fact over the years I have had 3 defective Zeiss scopes.
 
You won't get 2" groups with .243 ammo in a .308, or anything near that. In fact I would be surprised if the bullets made it halfway to the target.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 20:51
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Hornady and Speer have both made .308 100 grain bullets. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 06:12
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Im shooting 180 grain.Wink

Im not very used to this rifle, its new to me, Id say ca70 fires all in all. Im very comfortable with my 22cal but I admit I loose a bit of concentration and relaxation with the 308 blast. Its very possible its my fault. Some say the 2inch groups are good enough for hunting but I personally want to do much better and be consistent.
 
Im having an experienced friend shoot my rifle soon - he might be able to see if its the equipment or me. He right away commented on me using the highest magnification, told me to use less. He also commented on the fact that I shoot left handed with a right handed stock.  I dont have a cheek pad and he said It did not help. I there anywhere I can buy a cheek pad on my stock !! Stare
 
My initial concern was that the space from scope to barrell was too tight. He told me he had not seen such a small spacing, its a little under 1mm. You can slip 1-2 dollar bills between. He thought it was OK, and its a heavy barrell gun and shoult dont move. But he must find out soon. Big Smile
 
I have a bit of experience with Zeiss Conquests from friends and they are all good. My concern is if mine is a faulty one (Conquest 6.5-20x55mm). If so are there any obivous signs to look for
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 06:13
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I meant Conquest 6.5-20x50mm
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 06:19
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You may want to try some match ammo of some kind or better yet, start hand loading if your seeking sub MOA accuracy.
The Sako is surely capable of it, provided you feed it the ammo it likes and do your part.
 
As an aside, I had a Sako .300 WM that was very accurate, but somewhat fickle about the ammo it liked.  
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