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Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Really sad
    Posted: October/19/2018 at 16:00
Tikka doesn't leave the factory unless it shoots 1 inch or less, probably the best off the shelf new. With a Remington to get the best accuracy a gunsmith will true the action and re cut the crown on the barrel as well as glass bedding and free floating the barrel. Savages seem to shoot very well right out of the box but the extractor leaves something to be desired.  The extractor of preference now is one Badger Ordnance makes that is like an AR-15 extractor design but without the hump on the back (I just had one put on a Remington R5  300 WM.  The Sako type extractors also seem to work well.  I have been less than excited about the accuracy of my Ruger 77 in 300 WM but the extractor is plenty strong and unlikely to ever fail as a hunting gun it is quite solid, never fails. So each make has some positive factors.  Remington's don't seem to start out shooting to their full potential but a good gunsmith can do a lot to help them and if you throw enough money at them they will shoot.
You can go whole hog on a Remington but it gets spendy : http://www.gaprecision.net/rifles-ready-to-ship/6-5-creedmoor-remington-700.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2018 at 13:25
I don't think I have mentioned this yet, but get a Tikka. Big smile   It does/has everything you just listed. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lockjaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2018 at 12:59
I like my son's little savage. Except for ejecting the spent round. 

I like my Ruger M77 and Hawkeye too, but they aren't as tight as it relates to the bolt cycling as a remington. When I was in college, I had a Winchester model 70, now that had a smooth bolt. I wish I had kept that gun. I traded for my Remington 700 BDL. Which has been a fantastic gun, but I haven't seen the 270 just drop deer like the 308 or 7-08 does. 

The first rifle I bought was a Savage 110, in 270, and man alive did that gun kick. No recoil pad at all. The Winchester I added a Pachmyr decelerator pad, which everyone loved the looks of. That helped it. The Remington, which came in their Rynite stock, didn't have a pad either. 

I switched it out to a Hogue bed block stock and never looked back. 

If I rebarreled my 308, I am thinking I might want to do a 7-08. But probably won't. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2018 at 11:24
What Savage does well is build barrels. They go to great lengths to make sure they have straight, uniform bores, and this is why they typically shoot well. The spanner nut installation system they use for mounting the barrel to the action and establishing headspace...albeit ugly...is an ingenious way of assembly that lowers manufacturing time and cost. I can't fault Savage for filling a price point niche and doing it in a sensible way. They represent a reasonably good value for money spent, due almost solely to their barrel quality.

In contrast to their excellent barrels, I can't stand their action and most of their stocks. The action features a bolt stop that doubles as the sear, made of stamped sheet metal. Their trigger assemblies are also made of stamped sheet metal parts. The bolt shroud is loose and "jiggly." The action overall is poorly fitted and finished. In fairness, I do think the "floating" bolt head and the bolt race baffle behind the bolt lugs are good ideas. 

With few exceptions, their stocks are cheaply made and (IMO) have poor ergonomics. I can't totally fault them for this, as again, they are trying to meet a price niche.

I think Savages are a good choice for a rifle you basically plan to abuse. For something like a prairie dog rifle, where you routinely shoot thousands of rounds in a weekend, they're a good choice, because you can easily and inexpensively replace the barrel when you burn one out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lockjaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2018 at 11:04
Well I heard back from Remington, they said the rifle is shooting within spec. I am tempted to write back and say the Savage shoots within better spec..... LOL!!

But they did say the countour was varmit, so the lija barrel ought to be right. 

I went back and looked at my targets. I shot 8 shots with the ELD-X. First was to see where the gun was with the new stock. It was high left. I adjusted the elevation down where I wanted it. Shot again and was basically dead on, but still left. I adjusted windage and shot it 3 more times. That group, while still left, was around .8 inches. Then I adjusted to center it, and got 1.2. 

That in a nutshell is how this gun shoots. I would take .8 all day long if it did it all day long. It is so sad that I can sit there and shoot my old 700 in 270 and do that day in and day out, and it will just put shots in a tiny little cloverleaf hole. And that is with a barrel I probably hadn't cleaned in 20 years. 

I wonder if I shot some of those Tubbs bullets out of it, if that would help? They have them preloaded already, with the different  grit on each set of 10. The reviews are pretty good, even if accuracy didn't improve, cleaning does. 

Here is what is truly sad. I shot my Ruger Hawkeye Compact 308 at the range the other day. With Federal Premium Nosler Partition, 180 grain ammo. It's got a 16.5 in barrel, it weighs 5.75 pounds without a scope, and no recoil pad. It is not pleasant to shoot in a T-shirt. I ended up with some bruising, but put 3 shots into a 1.2 in group at 100 yards. With a 2-8 power scope. 

Heck I was really close to 1.2 with my 1971 Marlin 30-30 with Hornady Leverevolution ammo at 100 yards. It really likes Remington Hog Hammer, but it seems to shoot the barnes ammo about the same. 

And the Marlin, also without a recoil pad, is much more easy on my shoulder than my little Ruger 308. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote urbaneruralite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2018 at 10:43
The Savage is lesser quality metal parts that fight each other. The easiest way to characterize it is a worn one gets like a well used Rubik's cube, sloppy and binding. I don't know why the ejection gets sketchy. 

Now, those are the factory ones I've used as stock or swapped barrels or bolt heads on. Supposedly there is a smith who can make them very smooth when new. I've never used a slicked up one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2018 at 01:02
A while ago a father and son bought Savage Varminters. They came first and second in one of our toughest shooting disciplines. After that a lot of guys bought the same rifles. 
However, in the long run the guys with custom builds win the most consistently.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 18:32
Get a SAKO

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 16:04
Lilja makes a great barrel.  The one I owned was a one hole shooter. 

On ejection, that depends a lot upon the ejection design.  Some like a Remington have a spring that pushes on the ejector that is constant regardless of how fast you run it.  Others like a winchester, the faster you run it the father it will toss the brass.

I had a FN SPR that was lke the latter and it would take a heck of a run to get it to eject like my 700 actioned precision rifle.  But on the other hand, when not wanting to toss he brass far, it worked great.  You could just dump it all in a nice little pile right to the side of the rifle.  I really liked that as a reloader. 

I am not sure what system an axis uses (probably a spring), but you could always tune the spring a little tighter to fix that if it was an issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lockjaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 15:42
What I saw with the Savage Axis was it doesn't eject strongly, like a Remington or Ruger. Often the spent case ends up in the chamber. 

Well Lija has a standard Remington Varmit barrel they say is the same as the SPS barrel. It's 355 in stainless. I'd  have to get it threaded and painted before I had it installed. 

For fun I sent Remington an email asking them for spec measurements on the barrel, because I am still not pleased with the guns group size. Told them I wanted to rebarrel it. 

Told them 1.2 MOA with precision hunter, .5 MOA with Axis and AW ammo. LOL!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 15:05
Whats hard? How many rounds?

What failures are we talking about here? Complete action failure, extractor failure, ejector failure? Other types?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote urbaneruralite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 15:01
Buy a Savage. Run it hard. You will see.

I agree the point is moot for most hunting use. The reputation Savage has earned is proof of adequate performance in limited use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 13:48
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

They are full length bedded.  Just goes to show there is always more than one way to skin the cat. 


Correctamundo! I normally float all barrels on my rifles because I’ve found it easier to get consistency that way. However, the Fieldcraft stock is very stiff, the FL bedding is nicely done, and I can’t quarrel with how it shoots, so as the saying goes, “the proof is in the pudding!”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 10:35
Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

On the Weatherby, I meant like 20 years ago. Point being that we, none of us, had trouble doing what needed doing when top o' the line factory accuracy was 1.5" for 3 shots at 100 yards. If you're hitting what you really want to hit in the actual arena of use, groups on paper are irrelevant. 

Savage Axis actions won't run as long as a Remington 700 actions. The economy of the 700 comes from the featurelessness of the action and not doing machining work that can be done. Savage saves money by assembling an action from boxes of low-quality parts. A tuned 700 can be made into a quality, but overpriced and not very nice, long-running rig. A Savage will always be a pile of cheap, ill-wearing parts.

I think the advantage here for the 700 is that a quality .308 barrel will be a pleasure to use for longer than an Axis action.


Your generalization of Savage being cheaply made may or may not be true.  But more importantly most hunting rifles will never see 1000 rounds in their lifetime.  So it is hard to see actual evidence of that generalization.  And really hard to prove the 700 is better off that type of data. 

Savage make good firearms vs the direct competition.  They are accurate (many believe one of the most accurate factory rifles), they are reliable, they have a decent trigger, they have a great cheap no frills bedding system that works, they make good factory barrels, and they have a broad selection to fit your budget.  Whats not to like. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote urbaneruralite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 10:29
On the Weatherby, I meant like 20 years ago. Point being that we, none of us, had trouble doing what needed doing when top o' the line factory accuracy was 1.5" for 3 shots at 100 yards. If you're hitting what you really want to hit in the actual arena of use, groups on paper are irrelevant. 

Savage Axis actions won't run as long as a Remington 700 actions. The economy of the 700 comes from the featurelessness of the action and not doing machining work that can be done. Savage saves money by assembling an action from boxes of low-quality parts. A tuned 700 can be made into a quality, but overpriced and not very nice, long-running rig. A Savage will always be a pile of cheap, ill-wearing parts.

I think the advantage here for the 700 is that a quality .308 barrel will be a pleasure to use for longer than an Axis action.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 10:28
They are full length bedded.  Just goes to show there is always more than one way to skin the cat. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 09:57
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

How about a barrett fieldcraft. They are $1700ish. They will be near perfect right out of the gate. All the time and money you have spent on that one is probably getting close to the field craft.
 


I missed this on the first pass. This is an excellent suggestion too!

I have a Fieldcraft in 7-08, and it is an outstanding rifle in every respect! Fit and finish is great. It comes with a great trigger (Timney, designed specifically for that rifle). Barrel twists used for all chamberings were obviously decided by someone who has a clue. Bedding is perfect right out of the box, with each stock individually bedded to the actual barreled action it is mated to. They use longer than normal mag boxes so you can load longer high BC bullets out to the lands and still feed from the magazine. The stock they use is very high quality, carbon fiber construction made by AG Composites, and it is well finished with a "granite" looking speckled paint that is very durable. It is extremely lightweight, weighing about the same as a Kimber Montana of the same chambering. It has an extra mount screw hole in the front of the receiver, which allows you to use 2 different mount positions to adapt to different scope tube lengths and eye relief positions. The bolt handle is held in place by an ingenious slot and set screw retention method, which is very strong, yet allows you to change bolt handles should you wish to do so later (assuming different handles are available...IDK). Every review I've read from those who own one has had very good accuracy results, and mine will shoot as well, delivering consistent sub-MOA groups despite the pencil weight barrel profile. On top of all that, Barrett has a great customer service reputation, so in the rare chance you get a lemon, they will take care of you.

Sometimes it's just best to quit beating your head against the wall, putting lots of time, effort, and $ into trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Unless the rifle has sentimental value to you, it's just a factory rifle, nothing special. I say punt.

If you've repeatedly tried different things and spent a lot of money trying to get it to shoot and it still doesn't meet your expectations, cut your losses, sell it, and buy something else. It will cost you in the neighborhood of $500 - $700 to rebarrel it, should you choose that route (cost of the barrel blank plus labor to chamber, thread, cut to length, crown, and finish). Add that to the two stocks you've already bought, not to mention the time and frustration you've endured... when all is said and done, no matter how much you spend on it, you still have a Remington 700, so you will never recoup anywhere close to the cost you have in it should you decide to sell.





Don’t want to hijack the mans thread, so a quick question only. Is the barrel on your Barrett free floated? I read on they’re website that they aren’t. I’m wondering how they are getting such good accuracy from a light barrel that is bedded into the stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2018 at 04:56
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

With few exceptions, mass production factory rifle accuracy is a crap shoot. Some will really shoot way above their pay grade, others are underachievers. If it doesn’t shoot, you can do all the little tweaks this far discussed and your efforts are futile if the barrel is subpar. Barrel quality has the most influence on precision of any other factor by far. Either you got a good barrel or you didn’t. If you did, you can tune it with the common accurizing tweaks and load development and get it to shoot. If you didn’t, it’s a money pit, and no amount of tweaking and no amount of money spent will correct the problem short of barrel replacement.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2018 at 16:02
Injust saw carbon fiber barrel in a post. :). Since i just got one, gotta say i like it a lot. I gained 4 inches of barrel and shed 1.5 lbs of weight.

It shoots really nice too. The barrel cost me $800ish then $450 to chamber, thread barrel and bed to action.

Did i meantion i really like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lockjaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2018 at 15:52
McGown says send the barrel to them and they will duplicate it. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2018 at 15:23
With few exceptions, mass production factory rifle accuracy is a crap shoot. Some will really shoot way above their pay grade, others are underachievers. If it doesn’t shoot, you can do all the little tweaks this far discussed and your efforts are futile if the barrel is subpar. Barrel quality has the most influence on precision of any other factor by far. Either you got a good barrel or you didn’t. If you did, you can tune it with the common accurizing tweaks and load development and get it to shoot. If you didn’t, it’s a money pit, and no amount of tweaking and no amount of money spent will correct the problem short of barrel replacement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2018 at 14:59
Buy a Tikka and no more issues.  Big smile  They are the best of the cheap rifles IMO. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lockjaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2018 at 14:36
Weatherby guarantees 1moa with their ammo I believe. 

I don't think my bag thing is ideal. I think the back of the stock needs to be supported. However, that is the bag I use to shoot everything, so when I get a really tight group, or a really sloppy one, its all done the same way. 

I sent McGowan a message about a barrel. When I look at all their stuff, I just get a brain freeze. I told them I basically wanted a replacement barrel that was as close to the factory one as possible. 

What I find really interesting is I can go out to my hunting club, which is not idea, since I am shooting sort of down, and get a decent grouping, then go to a range, and its a little different. 

If I play around and get it down around 1 moa I will probably call it good with the factory barrel. It just bugs me that my old 700 shoots so darn well, as does this savage, and then I get a bull barrel 308 and its not like those two guns. 

I mean can I just get an Axis and have the barrel cut down 2 inches, drop a trigger in it, add a stock and call it good???? LOL... Maybe that is what I need to do. Although the savage action is longer. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote urbaneruralite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2018 at 13:24
Getting the rifle to ride bags with the bore perpendicular to the target as possible is a huge part of consistently printing the smallest groups. Change in bag placement from shooting is a common cause of flyers.

The rifle should ride straight back with the crosshair rising perfectly vertically without hopping or twisting, the same way every shot. For hunting rifles, a butterfly bag up front and a rabbit ear with a hard bottom on the rear works the best that I've found. A lightweight hunting rig will print bug holes if it is capable.

Bulls Bags are butterfly bags, but others have copied them. Protektor Model is the standard for the rear. You can adjust elevation on the front by using two stacks of sandbags made from pants legs under the butterfly bag. If the stock has aggressive texturing, dryer sheets placed on the bag help the rifle slide.

Depending on your purpose, 1.5" isn't all that bad. Wasn't Weatherby a big deal for guaranteeing 1.5" 3 shot groups some years ago? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2018 at 12:58
Ah, so they do. Thanks! I saw the “discontinued” statement at Brownells and another site and didn’t search further. Evidently it’s the “kit” with the bottle of alcohol they once offered that was discontinued, not the DBC itself.
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