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To upgrade or not?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 10:48
Tip69 View Drop Down
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I probably shouldn't, but I'm thinking about upgrading my Deer rifle scope.  I have a Jap made Weaver Grand Slam 3.5-10X50 which I bougth a few years ago.  All this talk lately about Kahles and Zeiss glass has me both excited and confused.  I'm not really disappointed in the GS, I quess I just want to get a Euro made one.  Since I've gotten the GS, I haven't really had a situation where my scope prevented me from making a shot on a buck that I thought was big enough.  In fact, this past season I was looking at a nice buck right up until last light and I could see him just fine. I was in a tree stand and was waiting for him to get a bit closer.  I eventually took a shot but I underestimated the distance and missed.
 
Since I already have a 50mm objective I want to stay with that.  I'm considering the 3-9X50 and the 3.5-10X50 Conquest along with the Kahles 2.5-10X50 C as well as the 3-10X50, 4-12X52 CL and the 3.5-10X50 KX all off the Samplelist.  Prices range from
$399 - $799. 
 
After reading some of the post here recently, maybe I can eliminate the CLs as they have Side Focus and maybe that's not such a great thing for a deer rifle.  I think Koshkin explained this before but I can't remember what the benefit is of the C's first focal plane reticle is..... can someone repeat that please.  My plan is to trade the GS in, so I won't have both scopes side by side to test and I'm not sure what's available locally to view.
 
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 10:55
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Only you can decide whether you should upgrade Tip69.  FFP recticles are magnifying recticles, in that they cover the same proportion of the target across the magnification range.  SFP recticles stay the same size, so they appear to change size and get smaller at higher mangifications, as the proportion of the target that is covered decreases.
 
Neither FFP or SFP is inherently better deer hunting, it is really just personal preference.
 
ND2000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 11:16
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Hi, Tip69!  Any of the scopes you mention would be a definite step up from the Weaver, though the Grand Slams are decent scopes.  So, no matter which you choose, you'll likely be very happy with it.

On FFP vs. SFP reticles:
 
FFP: 
- Usually better visibility in low light as you turn up the power;
- Reticle subtends the same portion of target image on all powers, so easier to estimate range using the reticle on any magnification setting;
- Theoretically better at maintaining POI as you change magnification because there is no accumulated error if the reticle isn't exactly centered with the erector assy lenses and it cannot be affected by movement of the zoom tube, as sometimes is the case with cheaper scopes;
- Not as well suited for precision shooting at very small targets at long range.
 
SFP:
- Better for precision shooting at small varmints and target shooting, especially at long range;
- Most common reticle in "American style" scopes, especially 1" tube models;
- Good for low powered scopes where you don't want the reticle to be too thin at the lowest magnification setting;
- Sometimes more prone to POI shift when changing powers.
 
My take on FFP vs. SFP reticles is that I prefer FFP for big game hunting and SFP for varmint, target, and rimfire shooting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 11:38
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With the current samplelist prices on Kahles scopes, I think this a perfect time to update.  As a a matter of fact, I have just ordered two Kahles scopes from the samplelist just for that reason (two 3-9x42 scopes: American Hunter and CL).

With the SFP vs FFP debate, I can certainly support what Ted just said above.

For me personally, I prefer FFP with scopes that have ranging reticle, i.e. tactical/longrange applications.  If I expect to estimate range or use the reticle for holdover, FFP is much simpler to use.

For hunting, I think a lot of FFP scopes have a little bit too thin of a reticle at the low end for bad light, so if you decide to go FFP route, consider an illuminated reticle.  Something like this Kahles from the Samplelist would work fine:

8322Kahles 2.5-10x50 Helia C51626, Matte finish, 1st focal plane Illuminated 4NK reticle, 30mm tube, fast focus eye piece, close to new condition. $1,594.00 $899.95

I do not recall ever saying that side focus is a bad thing for a deer rifle.  Side focus is not the best thing in the world for fast shots, since the depth of focus can a little shallow, but that is more a function of magnification.

I would not discount Kahles CL because of that.  If anything, I think the single best choice for you would be a Kahles CL 3-10x50 with #4 reticle (there are several over on the samplelist).

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 13:02
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the illumated kahles C that koshkin mentioned would be a very very good scope.
 
i have hunted w/ the NON-illuminated version and it's beyond excellent. almost as good as the zeiss victory, IMO. i mean, really close.
 
you have a good scope. it's just NOT the highend kahles, zeiss, or swaro.
 
let us know what you decide.
 
even a zeiss conquest would make your eyes a bit happier.
 
J
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 13:26
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Hi Tip69, my 2 cents........upgade worth it? For me YES. I got alot of info from the people on here and I bit the bullet an upgraded a couple of scopes so far, YES it has made a difference for me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 13:42
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Originally posted by jonbravado jonbravado wrote:

the illumated kahles C that koshkin mentioned would be a very very good scope.
 
 
Agree totally, as I own that very scope due to recent Sample List pricing.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 13:51
Tip69 View Drop Down
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Just to clarify......... the CL is a step up from the KX?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 13:53
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Yes, albeit very slight.  I don't have a KX, but I have both AH (that the KX replaced) and a CL, and I can tell you there isn't much difference optically.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 14:02
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Both use the same glass and AMV coating.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 14:05
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CL has a slightly different design, so its resolution is a touch better.  I will compare 3-9x42 CL and AH and post my impressions.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 14:05
Tip69 View Drop Down
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Shoot.... nobody in Omaha carries the Kahles........ several carry Swaro and the Zeiss.  I was hoping I could look thru one or two.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 14:06
Tip69 View Drop Down
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Thanks guys..... just the kind of info I was looking for!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 14:29
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Tip I'm in the process of upgrading to a high end scope on my deer rifle right now. Its the scope I spend the most quality time with and my deer hunting is a pretty serious matter. The conquest on it is a good scope and I have no complaints at all, but right now the kahles are probably as cheap as they will ever be and I know they are a step up for me in optics. I'm just getting the reticle choice straight so I get the one that will serve me best in the dismal old swamps I like to hunt in. IMy research has pointed me at the 3x50x50 CL with a 4a. I believe it is the most for the money that I can choose.

Focus
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 14:40
Tip69 View Drop Down
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That's what I would get except they only have that reticle with the multizero...... which I don't want to spend the extra $100 for.
Has anyone used the plex..... the cross hair part seems a little small to me.....or the thick part seems a little too long for me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 15:11
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plex is OK, but not nearly as good IMO to the #4 in lowlight.
 
Hold out, or save up if you can. the #4 is worth it.
 
J
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 15:16
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I've been told that the kahles plex is lighter/thinner than the conquest plex so the 4a sounds like the only logical choice for me. I've got to where I love that easy to see z-plex and for the kahles that needs to be a 4a to provide that. Better optics won't matter if I can't see the crosshairs to shoot at the critical moment.

Focus

Edited by Focus - January/16/2008 at 15:18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 15:21
Tip69 View Drop Down
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I just ordered the 3-10X50 CL with Plex!  Guys over at SWFA are awesome!!!!  Can't wait.  Didn't do the trade-in thing, so I might be looking to sell the Grand Slam once I get a chance to look thru the CL.   I also bought a Simmons .22 Mag in 3-9X32 for my 17HMR.  I'm taking off the Redfield 3-12X40AO I have on my .17 and putting  it on a Savage Model 11 in .204 I just picked up.
 
Looks like I'll be logging some range time soon.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 15:22
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cool good luck!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 15:43
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btw.........thanks Todd for not buying this scope (he had it on hold).... I don't think I could have waited for another one to come in!  Oh%20Yea%20Baby

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 20:23
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Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

I just ordered the 3-10X50 CL with Plex!  Guys over at SWFA are awesome!!!!  Can't wait.  Didn't do the trade-in thing, so I might be looking to sell the Grand Slam once I get a chance to look thru the CL.   I also bought a Simmons .22 Mag in 3-9X32 for my 17HMR.  I'm taking off the Redfield 3-12X40AO I have on my .17 and putting  it on a Savage Model 11 in .204 I just picked up.
 
Looks like I'll be logging some range time soon.
GOOD CHOICE on the scope also what kind of 17HMR do you have? There is a www.17HMR.net site that has alot of info if your interested.....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2008 at 22:16
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Between my 2 Sons and I we have 3..... all Savage 93R17s.  The first one I bought for my oldest Son is the FSS (stainless plain barrel synthetic stock w/o Accutrigger)... next, my younger Son paid for himself is a GLV (left handed blued heavy barrel wood stock w/Accutrigger) and last mine is a F (blued regular barrel synthetic stock w/Accutrigger).  There are so much fun to shoot!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 22:21
Tip69 View Drop Down
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The CL arrived today..... that was quick!  Didn't get a chance to really check it out, but I was a little disappointed with the critical eye positioning.  Maybe it will seem better when mounted on my rifle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2008 at 08:32
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I have one question, is Kahles leaving the American markert?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2008 at 08:39
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No they will be distributed by legacy sports out of nevada. They will be bring out a new line of optics later this year.

Wish I heard anything that made me want to buy one.....I really have been ready to give one a try but I wanted to hear about a reticle like what I'm used to and love with the conquest, not so. I wanted to hear about a good eye box with some eye position latitude, but again not so. I know there are a lot of kahles likers on the site and can't fault their choice but I just figure I can't buy one without first getting one to look thru and form my own opinions on. They truly may not be my cup of tea.....

Focus
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