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To lap or not to lap ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 03:49
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Hello everyone ,
Been shooting for a few years and I'm just now seeing this process known as lapping . Asked around in hopes someone would have these tools and its a not a common thing . So looks like I'm spending money this weekend !! So before I even buy my scope , I'm thinking of getting a scope mounting kit with all the trimmings . I come to y'all in hopes of suggestions and if this is a wise investment ? Just when you think you have a grip on a subject and you don't even have a good foundation haha . That's me . Thank you gentlemen and yes it's 448 in the morning and this is what I'm thinking about bahaha !!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 05:14
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What rings are you getting? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 05:46
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Got the two piece P-223 mounts . Was hoping to continue this way also have a cantilever one piece vortex mount . Thank you for response .
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 07:17
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I have the "lapping kit".  My philosophy has always been "if it doesn't fit, lapping is necessary… never remove any material you don't have to".  I've only lapped one set of rings a LONG time ago… mostly because I had the kit and wanted to try it out.  I use one piece mounts (include rings) whenever possible and have never had to lap those.  They are a bit more expensive, usually, but…  If you use the alignment tool and it doesn't fit properly, some lapping may be required.  I always place the scope in the rings/mount and check for fit after the alignment tool.  I've had good results.  
Some people always lap, swear by it.  Each to his own.  I, personally, have not found lapping to be necessary in most cases.  I've lapped a few rings for people who just wanted it done… demanded it.  

Weaver and Wheeler both make scope mounting kits that are good, but have deficiencies that require additional purchases.  I chose Wheeler and added the lapping/alignment kit.  Could have easily gone with Weaver.  There are other "kits" out there, generally more expensive and I can't see that they make a difference.

"a difference that makes no difference is no difference" (Mr. Spock, "The Price of the Phoenix")


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 12:38
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My observations on lapping are if the rings are cast moulded they need to be lapped due to uneven shrinkage when they cool. Rings that are CNC machined usually do not need to be lapped if they are on a base or bases of equal quality. It also needs to be noted that what the bases are mounted on can require lapping. Example: a receiver that was hand polished before bluing.

Regards,
dsr
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 18:35
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My antiquated views on ring lapping are well documented. Big Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 19:16
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If you get a quality integrated ring and base combo. such as the DNZ models, you

will not need to lap.  They are precision machined, and are a good option.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 20:25
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I'm all for using precision bases and rings, but many times the need to lap rests with the rifle manufacturer, and how precise the mounting holes were aligned and tapped into the receiver.  This is one reason I choose to use Leupy dual dovetail bases and Burris Signature rings w/inserts.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 20:28
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I like Burris rings....







Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 19:33
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Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

I'm all for using precision bases and rings, but many times the need to lap rests with the rifle manufacturer, and how precise the mounting holes were aligned and tapped into the receiver.  This is one reason I choose to use Leupy dual dovetail bases and Burris Signature rings w/inserts.

With a one piece mount like the DNZ, you take any issue like that out of the equation.

That is nice.  Smile

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 19:44
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Not if the action is not square. Then the base just bends when u tighten it down
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 20:13
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Tool:

Are you familiar with the DNZ, Dednutz, Game Reaper products?

If not check out how they are made.  They work very well, and they don't

bend in the middle.  Wink

This week I just got another one, to mount a new to me Kahles 50 mm scope on a

Rem. 700.



Edited by NDhunter - May/30/2016 at 20:22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 21:45
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Sorry ND, supertool's got it pegged.  One piece bases don't make up for shoddy/misaligned mounting holes or actions.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 21:54
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yes i have owned one and there is nothing magical about that thin little bar tying the end together. I have a 700 action that was so out of square when u tightened the front of my steel or aluminum 1 piece picatinny base that a large gap would form at the back. When i would tighten the back down either base would flex. There is alot more metal that flexed in one of those bases than a DMZ has. I had to epoxy bed my base to my action to square things up.

A DNZ won't fix an out of square action. Something has to be done to fix the squareness of the action.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 21:56
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What rifles are known for those problems ?  Put some names out there, I

don't think that is an issue of any importance.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 21:58
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Remington 700, savage, winchester. I have personally bedded bases on all 3 of those because the actions were not square. Do a little searching, you will be suprised what u find out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 22:10
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Not sure if the attachment pdf still works on this link to snipersparadise. But usngunner did a review of his savage action and how far out of whack it was. I cant pull it up on my phone, but maybe it still works for a computer.

http://snipersparadise.com/forum/long-arms/long-arms-work-bench/9627-lapping-rings

I have kokopelli alignment bars and use them to check the squareness of every rifle/mount i put a scope in. If everything is out of square and u tighten a scope down in out of whack rings then all that pressure gets put into the scope tube. Cant be good for them and i dare bet alot of scope issues are the result of that. Thats probably often the case when a scope won't work for a person and they send it back and the manufacturer checks it and says it works fine. But when owner gets it back and remounts it the problems return.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 22:17
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I once read some posts by glen seekins on lapping rings. It was alomg time ago, IIRC he talked about how lapping typically will make your rings out of round because most of the metal will come out of the bottom half simply because of gravity. Also it makes the rings bigger so your scope will be more likely to slip in the rings. He said good rings are made exactly the right size and lapping chamges that.

My opinion. If u make sure with alignmemt bars that your action/base/rings are square then there will be no meed to lap. Possibly that will require bedding your base, but not always. My browning abolt action with talley rings was perfect. As was my stiller action. I have 3 ruger americans, they have all been just right. My mossberg mvp was square. I have mounted scopes on 15 or 16 remington 700s for friends and i have epoxy bed 5 of them. I bedded my wichester 223 wssm base and my savage 10 base.

Edited by supertool73 - May/30/2016 at 22:22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2016 at 05:55
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I prefer squaring the receiver or filling and redrilling mounting holes to lapping rings.  Personal preference, but I think it is a better solution over time.  Had to do this a few times.  Not terribly complex.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2016 at 08:31
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Ruger rings on the M77's are often out of alignment .020". Lapping won't fix that. It's pretty hard to beat the Burris rings with the spherical inserts.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2016 at 08:52
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Originally posted by NDhunter NDhunter wrote:

What rifles are known for those problems ?  Put some names out there, I

don't think that is an issue of any importance.




Any rifle produced by human hands can be vulnerable, obviously some are going to be worse than others.  Here's what I can tell you though........4 years ago I bought my first semi-custom rifle, this one in particular was a Hill Country Harvester 7mm Rem Mag.  What they do is take a Rem700 action, true it, square it, pillar and  glass bed, ad go through about 15 barrels to find the one they like to mate with the action.   I sent them Talley lightweights in which they mounted, lapped, and tested accuracy with an in house scope (Swaro something).   When I received the rilfe  I noticed the lapping and gave them a call.  They told me that they had seen so many problems with mass produced actions they stared lapping every ring set they mount. 

Once again, it wasn't a ring mfg problem, but a rifle action/tapping etc problem.  This is one big reason I've been mounting everything with Leupy dual dovetails and Burris Signature rings with inserts.....no lapping required.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2016 at 08:54
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:



I have kokopelli alignment bars and use them to check the squareness of every rifle/mount i put a scope in. If everything is out of square and u tighten a scope down in out of whack rings then all that pressure gets put into the scope tube. Cant be good for them and i dare bet alot of scope issues are the result of that. Thats probably often the case when a scope won't work for a person and they send it back and the manufacturer checks it and says it works fine. But when owner gets it back and remounts it the problems return.



Excellent.....couldn't agree more. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2016 at 09:30
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Originally posted by oldfortyfive oldfortyfive wrote:

Ruger rings on the M77's are often out of alignment .020". Lapping won't fix that. It's pretty hard to beat the Burris rings with the spherical inserts.

Ditto on the Burris Signature rings.  I've use their Signature Zee rings on another rifle and liked them, so bought another set for a more recent rifle.  It's built off a Mauser 98 action that had been drilled poorly, and I found that the holes were too far out of alignment (> 20 MOA) to correct with the thickest offset inserts.  I jumped up to the Burris' XTR Signature Rings (which was a better fit height wise anyway) and problem was solved since it offers up to 40 MOA correction with the inserts provided.  The Burris' XTR rings are a thing of beauty...  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2016 at 15:17
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If ever there was an argument for buying a CNC-machined receiver or upper this is it. Top that with good rings (e.g Seekins) and be done.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2016 at 15:39
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Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

If ever there was an argument for buying a CNC-machined receiver or upper this is it. Top that with good rings (e.g Seekins) and be done.


And that I believe is the exact problem.  Good rings and bases are CNC machined, so unless something went really wrong they are not likely to be the problem. 

But from what I understand, many of the popular mass produced actions are finished by some dude with a hand tool, so error comes into play. 
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