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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/23/2006 at 17:40
druganov View Drop Down
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 i have often thought why do companies make sub-standard products and market them with their name and reputation on the line. a good example i think would be savage package rifles that come with simmons 8 point scopes. the rifle is very capable but many first time shooters or people on a budget go for these guns. so many people get exposed to savage and simmons and think crap of them in the future. like with bushnell, i bought a bushnell 4X12X50 scope with AO at walmart. the box says everthing the top of the line one says almost, shockproof,wateproof,recoil proof,and 1/4 inch adjustments at 100yrds. well after shooting a AK shooting 122gr 7.62X39 ammo the reticle fell out of the scope and during sight in 1/4 inch at 100yrds was a lie as well so what good was this scope for anyone? i know some are going to say well people who can't buy quality buy these scopes, really? i think anyone such as myself had i known i was buying something that performed like this i would have never owned it in the first place. companies like BSA are nothing more than a scam, i think companies should hold themselves to a standard and make quality products. when the VCR first came out look how much they cost, people bought them didn't they? i can't help but think of simmons optics right now. they came out with a totally new line of scopes and they are in every magazine i see yet their products are not even available that are being advertised. the only scope in the line-up that seems to have the flex-erector tube is the aetec,why? all of the boxes say master series and speak of all these improvments but you really have to pay attention to the fine print to see what you do and don't get with each one,it is so hard to keep up with that some places they are advertised are printing up the features wrong. none of the redfield scopes are ready and the weaver scopes aren't getting what the simmons and redfields are getting.yet all of them are owned and made by meade optics. is meade afraid to give the whole line quality and join some of the high end scope companies in making every scope their name is on be a quality product? no one wants a sub-standard product not even a young hunter, or person on a budget. i am on the quest for a scope at the moment and honestly i am having a hard time making a decision. i was wanting a simmons aetec master series scope 2.8X10X44 illuminated i even purchased a new rifle and mount just to put it on and even though i saw it in many magazines and articles months ago it won't be available until mid-december and there is a national backorder on the scope according to simmons dealers in my area. i looked around and thought i would try redfield because they had a lot of the same features and found out they haven't even been made yet according to a rep i spoke with in customer service at simmons/meade optics. the aetec scope i want is even on SWFA as available it has a price and if you click on it you can go buy it,but it's not in stock,why? it says the picture is coming soon,not currently not available,why? i chatted with a rep from SWFA saying they might be there the middle of december. so that is coming soon?interesting. i think if a scope won't pass the box test it shouldn't be in a box for sale. everone doesn't need ziess glass or a 30mm tube,or side adjust parralax,but everyone needs the mechanism inside the scope to track and hold zero and be repeatable. i think scopes that are substandard should give warnings or be truthful, like this,not intended for use on real guns,use on air powered or spring powered guns only.scope requires tapping when adjustments are made to settle the reticle. zero needs to be checked regularly and should not be depended on to stay. magnification changes will change bullet impact so try scope at all magnifications and get used to the changes or make sure to shoot at a set magnification and only use higher or lower setting to look not to shoot, also please realise the company that makes this scope also makes quality optics, so when you are tired of this try one of our more expensive quality optics available through your local dealer. most people buy the cheap sub-standard product because it claims to be a good dependable product and when faced with the choice and thoughts of,well if this does what it says i don't need to pay so much for a more expensive scope unless i am really shooting for money or going on guided wilderness hunts in extreme conditions or shooting at extreme distance or in a tactical situation. i have owned many crap scopes in my day and thought it was the rifle or the ammo that was making me shoot all over the place. only after years of shooting buying guns,ammo,scopes,mounts,and shooting rests, etc. i found out optics make a huge difference in accuracy and shot placement. that just adjusting the magnification sometime will make the bullet miss. i even zeroed a scope once without tapping on the tube to settle the reticle it took a lot of ammo after boresighting to get it shooting near where i wanted it to and to hold a group but after shooting it several times the adjustments set and the reticle moved from settling from the recoil vibrations causing it to start grouping in another location.what good is a scope like that for anyone? ai read earlier in a post a guy was suggesting a rating syatem for scopes like the ones for tires,"heat range B tread wear 240 handling S speed rating ZR" so you know what you are getting. optics 5 clarity 7 light transmission 6.2 tracking B etc. sounds great to me. let me know what i am buying before i make another bad investment and hate your scope company and have no confidence in your products. think about it. also understand many scope companies could have made this post but it was already too long when it started, but you get my drift i'm sure. standards people and ratings that's what we need.what do you think,or have you had experiences like this?or reading this does it make you think of past problems you blamed on a poor innocent gun or ammo company?let's here it. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/23/2006 at 21:39
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I wonder why if you have had a number of "cheap" scopes you didn't like that you are wanting to buy another one?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/23/2006 at 21:51
Dolphin View Drop Down
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My experience has been quite different from yours.  I have eschewed the expensive over priced scopes knowing that the technology existed to make scopes at much lesser prices to perform at close to what even the euros do.  I say a guy the other day looking at a 1500 dollar Swarvoski to put on a Remington 270 to hunt deer and no further than 200 yards.  Ridiculous.  I have used Simmons, Swifts, Nikko Stirlings, Tascos, Older Bushnells, Fuji, Mueller and even a cheap Simmons Blazer on a Weatherby Vanguard 308, all with great repeatable results.  Never one failure.  Last year I hunted with a Howa 300 winmag with a 3x9 40mm Simmon Whitetail, shot 3 times and killed 3 deer from 125 to 175 yard without one of them taking step.  I even dropped the rifle several feet climbing out of a free deer stand after missing the last two rungs between hunts, never rechecking the zero on the rifle.  Still perfect.  I have a Simmons older Aetec on a 340 Wby Mag custom rifle without a muzzle break and it has not missed a stride yet.  I do have to admit.  I am doing long range hunting this year with a 30-378 wby and originally mounted a Mueller 4-16 50mm sport dot, (with a muzzle break).  Will be shooting 500 to 1000 yards.  I got nervous about the recoil and repeatability of the elevation settings, especially after talking with the owner of the company, despite the fact he reassurred me it would be fine, when I purchased it.  Therefore, I bought the most expensive scope I have ever purchased, a Bushnell Elite 4200 4x16 50 mm and know that it will be what I need.  In retrospect the Mueller should do fine, as with the muzzle break, it should have the recoil of a 270 wby magnum.  Will see.  Bottom line.  Alot of good scopes out there for good prices, but you have to look.  There is the thing called the law of diminishing returns.  But the Bushnell Elite series comes as close to the most expensive scopes out there in most respects and in some, beats them (elevation adjuments for long distance shooting are greater than and enough for 1000 yard shots for the rifle I will be using than the American line of Swarovski scopes which are inadequate for my purposes.  And by the way, many of the other mentioned scopes to include the Mueller and Sightron are adequate).  Have a good season.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/23/2006 at 23:12
Acenturian View Drop Down
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Interesting.  I come from the train of thought of buy the best that you can afford.  I'm not saying that everyone needs to have a Schmidt & Bender scope, especially for the average back yard hunter.  However, I do believe that people should in my humble opinion buy decent optics.  There are plenty of good scopes and binouclars out there for well under $500.

 

Could someone hunt with the cheapest scope made. Sure, will it hold zero maybe, maybe not. Will it provide good low light performance? I highly doubt it.  Again for some that might be fine.  It's not a question of being an "optics snob" and by all means people should look for the best performance at the best price. But it does come down to how much or how serious you take your sport of shooting or hunting.  If I was into parachuting I sure as heck aren't going to go with the cheapest rig I could find.

 

I've done all the low end stuff  before and what I found out is there is not much of a bargin there.  When reputablle compaines like Nikon, Burris, Weaver, Sightron and some others make good scopes for a couple hundered dollars which usually translates to only about $100 more dollars then the low end garbage. Those entry level good scopes will provide much better performance and long term durability plus if a person does get drawn for a high stakes hunt there are still in the game.

 

Usually the first step up in optics is the biggest most defined step, after that it is just a question of how much you want to spend for minimal gain.

 

There is a saying "you get what you pay for", sure there are some good buys but generally that statement rings true in the optic world.  What does tick me off more than anything is when good solid companies start letting quality control slip. True, most have life time guarenties so you can get it corrected but that can get annoying.  I don't expect much from a $50 scope but I do expect a great deal more on a $220.oo scope and I expect it to be pretty decent.

Just my 2 cents

Happy shooting

AC

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/23/2006 at 23:39
Roy Finn View Drop Down
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Couldn't agree more with what Acenturian stated. Especially if your going to be hunting with a braked Weatherby at "500-1000 yards". 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2006 at 03:11
koshkin View Drop Down
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Hmm.

Quite frankly, I can't fathom shooting at a deer at 500-1000 yards, so I'll refrain from posting my opinion on scopes here since I am clearly not worthy.   If anyone cares though, my opinion is plastered all over this forum.  Not hard to find at all.

Oh, and druganov, it would be much easier to read your post if you used capital letters and new paragraphs occasionally.  I only made half way through, although I probably agree with a lot of what you are saying.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2006 at 03:32
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Originally posted by Acenturian Acenturian wrote:

Interesting.  I come from the train of thought of buy the best that you can afford.  I'm not saying that everyone needs to have a Schmidt & Bender scope, especially for the average back yard hunter.  However, I do believe that people should in my humble opinion buy decent optics.  There are plenty of good scopes and binouclars out there for well under $500.

 

Could someone hunt with the cheapest scope made. Sure, will it hold zero maybe, maybe not. Will it provide good low light performance? I highly doubt it.  Again for some that might be fine.  It's not a question of being an "optics snob" and by all means people should look for the best performance at the best price. But it does come down to how much or how serious you take your sport of shooting or hunting.  If I was into parachuting I sure as heck aren't going to go with the cheapest rig I could find.

 

I've done all the low end stuff  before and what I found out is there is not much of a bargin there.  When reputablle compaines like Nikon, Burris, Weaver, Sightron and some others make good scopes for a couple hundered dollars which usually translates to only about $100 more dollars then the low end garbage. Those entry level good scopes will provide much better performance and long term durability plus if a person does get drawn for a high stakes hunt there are still in the game.

 

Usually the first step up in optics is the biggest most defined step, after that it is just a question of how much you want to spend for minimal gain.

 

There is a saying "you get what you pay for", sure there are some good buys but generally that statement rings true in the optic world.  What does tick me off more than anything is when good solid companies start letting quality control slip. True, most have life time guarenties so you can get it corrected but that can get annoying.  I don't expect much from a $50 scope but I do expect a great deal more on a $220.oo scope and I expect it to be pretty decent.

Just my 2 cents

Happy shooting

AC

 

Great post, AC!!

 

Yeah, like koshkin said, split your post up a little more, my friend. VERY hard for us to read. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2006 at 04:29
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Caveat Emptor. It isn't just scopes, but virtually everything in life. Women for example. Once the hair color, perm, eye shadow, lipstick, foundation, miracle bra, and control top panties are removed, you often have someone VERY different than you first thought.   Or shoes. Just because you buy them does NOT mean you will be able to play basketball or whatever. Or Brand X cars, beer, and deodorant. Just because you buy them and use them, does not mean gorgeous nublie young women (or what appear to be gorgeous nubile young women after all the makeup, hair color, miracle bras, etc. are applied) will be irresistably attracted to you. And when was the last time you saw a fast food meal that looked anything like the advertisements? Of course, those fast food meals might be why all those (possibly) gorgeous nubile young women don't want you even though you drive the right car and use the right deodorant.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2006 at 06:21
Dolphin View Drop Down
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These are all my points.  The brands that I pointed out were not 50 dollar scopes, but all approached the 150 to 200 dollar mark, minus the Simmons blazer, but it to has performed flawlessly.  The Mueller I purchased has received good reviews, but as you noticed I realized that for the performance I need, I went for a top scope and spent the appropriate money.  Still for that 150 to 250 yard deer shot, I have hunted with countless guys and their expensive scopes and yes the optics were slightly better and the light transmission was slightly better, but in translation, not worth the money, especially when I was killing more deer that dropped dead in their tracks, while we spent sometimes hours tracking theirs into the middle of nowhere.  I am a cardiologist and as I tell people, it is not the stethscope, it is 99% of what is between the ears that makes a good listener of the heart.  Same with a shooter.  Accuracy, Accuracy and Accuracy.  But, for my present set up, I need repeatability, hence the expensive scope.  I will probably try both, but at 4.5 dollars a shot, maybe not.  Will see.  Good hunting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2006 at 07:34
Acenturian View Drop Down
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Dolphin makes some good points.  I agree that the best gun and top optics in the world is not going to make the shooter. Practice makes the shooter.  However, decent optics makes the good shooter better or at least up to their full potential.

Let me share a binocular experience with you.  I have a set of Weaver Grand Slam binoculars 10.5x44 cost new was approximately $400.00.  These would qualify as a mid upper Japanese brand of binoculars.  I can remember looking through mine and comparing them to a friends pair of Zeiss and another friends Leica's.  It was a crystal clear day sun was out and as I looked through each I could not help but think " man, I donít see much difference, especially for another $1000".  All three pairs were very very clear and crisp.

Ok, now about 8 months later we are hunting out in the middle of no where and it starts to snow, finally the sun breaks through and now Iím trying to class between snow and dry spots on the ground.  The Weavers showed so much chromatic aberration that after a couple hours of glassing I felt like I was going crazy.  When I compared the other top end Euros, well if there was any it was very very minimal. 

My point is, yes you can spend less and it will still get the job done. I also have a Mueller scope for my .17 HMR and could not be happier. Simmons made a great little scope called the ATV several years ago, and I put that on a .22 Mag Both scopes are very clear and in my opinion great for the money. However, Iím not about to say that they are as good as some of the entry level ďgood scopesĒ. For what they are and what they are mounted on, yes a perfect match.

 

True,  150-250 yards is not all that far and the majority of shots by a great many hunters is within that range. However, if Im on an expensive Elk hunt and its starting to get dark and my trophy bull walks out at 200 yards, I want a decent scope with low light performance.  As for 500- 1000 yards, well this is a personal observation but I find that to be more "sniping then hunting".  Hunting is putting the stalk on an animal and attempting to close distance as a part of fair chase.

 As you step up in optics you will receive some advantages that are not afforded at less cost.  Again, to agree with the Doctor itís not the optics that makes the shooter.  However, I would still prefer if I went in to the DR for a heart issue that he/she listens to mine through a good stethoscope and not a rolled up paper cone.

 

AC

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2006 at 08:46
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As a young hunter starting out I too was forced to buy the lower end scopes due to my financial situtation, but as I grew older and educated myself, increased my financial position I continualy eduacted myself in my favorite sport.

 

I understand what you are saying about the companies and agree some, but the recreational hunters need to educate themselfs with the products they are buying. I am amazed at the people who stand at the counters of Wal-Mart and hold these BSA scopes up and brag that these are the best you can get. I wonder why places like Wal-Mart due not carry some of the better quality products not all of us what to buy JUNK.

 

Product knowledge is your only friend, research the options and buy the best you can afford. Not everyone can afford the cadillac some have to buy the chevy, but the company that makes the chevy should take pride and develope the best chevy it can for the price, its like you said it is their reputation on the line.

 

My Grandpa used to guide bird hunts for the city fellers, his favorite quote was $10,000.00 Trucks, $500.00 shotgun, 200.00 in cloths and 25 cents in ability. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2006 at 13:01
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I agree, shooting at 500 to 1000 yards is more sniping than hunting, but that is the challenge.  I know my capabilities and have gotten tired of the same short distance boring shots.  Unfortunately, where I live, tracking deer with a rifle is not allowed, at least in my county, a I have to be 8 feet above the ground.  That I would really like to do with my 30-30 Marlin with a fixed 4x 32 mm Burris with see through Millet bases.  With respect to listening to the heart, what I meant is that I can discern what I need to with a 35 dollar nurses scope as well as with a 200 dollar so called cardiologist scope which is way over priced.  I have even an electronic ampifiying model, but when it comes down to it, its all about knowing the patient and what to listen for.  Just like shooting.  Knowing your game, your shot, angle to the target, how far your rifle is zeroed, estimating range and being able to pull the trigger without flinching.  I have seen both my nephew and future son in law take shots with old Bushnells and a Tasco in near complete darkness, after I sighted the deer with a pair of decent Nikon binocs (initially could not tell wether it was a dog or a deer) at 150 yards and the former drop them where they stood.  The latter shot a doe at a full gallop in the same amount of light.  Easily past the legal light limits, I would guess, maybe not, nobody had a watch.  Just goes to show you what accuracy means.  What I would really like to see is hard data on all these scope with respect to clarity, light transmission, distortion, chromatic aberration and more importantly, blind testing with hunters/testers not knowing what they are looking through or hunting with.  I think this would be more than revealing, but eye opening.  I do not think any of the high end manufactures would want to sponser such a test.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/24/2006 at 22:02
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Some valid points on both side here.  Here's my $.02...

 

I'm not rich.  I work at a chemical plant as a field operator (turning valves, watching & adjusting gauges, etc.) and will probably continue to be "blue collar" for at least a few more years.  I also have a wife & 2-year old boy which means that my time and dispensable income are in short supply.  Due to my place in life, I don't have the luxury to have a bunch of hobbies in which to develop a real talent and passion.  This means that my life consists of work, family, and, when I have the time, hunting/shooting.

 

With this being said, I have upgraded all of my hunting equipment in the last year.  Along with new boots & camo, I have invested in new rifles & optics.  This entailed selling my "old" rifles & scopes that had done fine in the past but were what I considered dispensible.  My reasoning for doing so went kind of like this: I'm never going to own the nicest cars or houses, go to the swankiest vacation destinations, or enjoy extravagances that are common to the wealthy.  HOWEVER, I'm going to have the BEST equipment and take the time to master the one passion that I can pursue.  My motivation for upgrading isn't so I can win some sort of pissing contest at the hunting camp.  It has more to do with wanting to be able to perform at a high level in the one passion I'm able to pursue.  I feel strongly that my investment in my new rifles (Browning A-Bolts in .308 & .260 and Savages in .223 & .308) and optics (Kahles CL 4x12 52mm, Zeiss Diavari VM/V 4x12 56mm and IOR 35mm 6x24 50mm) will eliminate a few varibles that can ruin a hunt, such as scope failure, gun malfunction, etc.  That's not to say that unfortunate equipment failures will never happen but the quality & reliability of this equipment should dramatically lower the odds.  I drive 6 hrs. one way to deer & boar hunt.  The last thing I want to experience is losing a chance at a real trophy due to equipment failure or simply having a sub-par rifle or scope that isn't up to the task when it really counts.  As it stands now, it should be rare that I can't see my target during legal shooting hours or be able to hit it accurately if I do my part.  Premium scopes do pay for themselves in many ways and bargain scopes cost you a lot more than money over the long haul.

 

Just my opinion.  As a side note, I do agree with dolphin that you don't always need the most expensive equipment to do a job.  However, I will say that having the best equipment usually means that there isn't a job you can't do.  Your limits are greatly expanded and the average quality products will require the user to have less room for error and greater expertise.

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To companies that make sh*ty scopes:
You know who you are, stop making crap or you will be crapped on.

Welcome to the OT where all your secrets are revealed.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/25/2006 at 05:51
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I can understand ceylonc's logic in his situation.  I only drive 15 minutes and can hunt whenever I find the time.  My limit is 9 deer.  I only plan on taking 1 or 2.  However, you have done the same thing with your rifles that I have been saying about optics.  You have choses good quality rifles, that can get the job done, but have avoided the nose bleed priced rifles.  I have no problem with those choices, they are fine and capable.  But like I said you did what I am saying with the rifles that I do with rifle scopes.  People say put more into your scope than the rifle, but when that rifle jams, freezes up or the bolt throw is so long you do not eject the shell for the next shot and lose a trophy, the same is true.  But again I can see the choice being reasonable with respect to the rifles.  Just trying to make an analogy and a point.  Good day.
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