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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 16:29
mwyates View Drop Down
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1) Leupold makes good scopes; some are overpriced, but nearly all companies make some scopes that are overpriced. 

 

2) Swarovski has a better marketing department than Leupold; The average joe will tell you that Swaro is the best binocular, but those who know, know different.

 

3) The best sign of an inexperienced shooter/hunter is that he is overgunned and overscoped (I think I just made that word up)

 

4) You can get a really good scope from any maker.

 

5) You can get a bad scope from any maker; but you have a better chance at a bad one from the lower tier companies.

 

6) SWFA is a great company to do business with.

 

7) I've been hanging around here for 2 1/2 years.  It was fun at first with a lot of good information.  Now, like a lot of the Internet, there's so much crap that it's not worth the effort to find the good stuff.  I'm going to go read and play my guitar.

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 16:34
koshkin View Drop Down
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I do not know if Swaro has a better marketing department than Leupold, but both seem to be pretty good at marketing their products.  Either way neither Swaro nor Leupold would release their marketing budget figures, so this is just speculation.

I do agree with the rest of what you posted though, except that I do not own a guitar.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 16:50
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Hey dudes, it's been awhile.  I just felt the need to say that I agree with everything mwyates just said, and I have been reading and playing my guitar as well.  I have dropped in from time to time with keen interest to see what you all have to say though.  The concensus seems to be that Leupold makes poor optics and they are on the brink of destruction (a hint of sarcasm).  I happen to disagree...

 

I talked to a very knowledgeable employee at Scheels about a month ago, and he informed me that all of the optics companies have relatively overpriced scopes.  He cited Burris, Nikon (wasn't particularly impressed with the Monarch), and Leupold, to name a few.

 

I also know that in the guitar world, the companies that have moved production overseas make a larger profit than those that have chosen to stay domestic (ie. Gibson guitar company) because of the extremely cheap overseas labor supply.  Gibson also remains the standard by which other guitars are judged by, in the same way that Leupold seems to set the standard in the rifle scope world.  Anyway...the world grows smaller by the minute...

 

Am I implying that the same is true in the rifle scope industry?  Not necessarily, but perhaps...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 16:52
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Swaro although overpriced does not have emmbarasing products. There are over 100 riflescope makers now and you canot get a good product from all of them. If you dont know dont post with history. Leupold,weaver,redfield..........times have changed, move foreward. f**k gun magazines. I am getting ready to go do some shooting and comparing tonight. I look foreward to 2007,it is going to be a great year.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 16:58
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I hardly think that Leupold's products are "emmbarasing."  They would go bankrupt trying to fulfill their warranty requirements if they were.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:12
rootmanslim View Drop Down
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GTman, you can't be a part of the in crowd at OT unless you HATE Leupold for their success. You gotta embrace the super expensive Euro scopes or bow at the knee of his imperial majesty of Japan. Then and only then will you have any "in" on OT. I am surprised SWFA still sells Leupold as all the experts here know they are inferior overpriced over marketed junk. Don't be put off that there is no quantative data to support those claims TRUST ME , they fall apart all over the place YOU MUST BELIEVE!!! DRIVE OUT THOSE LEUPOLD DEMONS! The worst Nikon is superior to any Leupold and don't be concerned that you can't get it fixed because it will never fail. The reason Leupold has such a great warranty is to placate all the fools who buy them in the first place by given super repair service. Can't you see it? just chant IOR, ZEISS, SWARO, NIKON for 1200 hours and you will SEE THE LIGHT! Brother you can be saved!
"There is still time" (a gold star to the first to i.d. that quote)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:17
Acenturian View Drop Down
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I will agree that both Swaro and Leupold have excellent marketing departments. However, I have to disagree with the comment that the average Joe believes Swarovski is the best binocular and those who know, know different.  I believe the "average Joe" believes the big three makes the best binoculars (Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski) and quite frankly I agree they do.  I tested all of them and I like my Swaro's the best, does that make them the the best? No, I don't think there is a "Best" at that level of performance personal preference is the key. What looks good to one set of eyes will not look as good to the next guy. Hens the reason why all three can charge HUGE amounts of money for their binoculars.

 

Now I do believe that the average Joe may not know of just as nice of optics from brands like Nikon with their Premire Series. But that is because the "average Joe" does not take the time to research or even better go down and put hands on the product before buying it.

 

Do I believe that you pay more for a name? Absolutely.  Go down and buy a binocular strap and because it says Swarovski you will be charged twice as much as one that says Pentax even thought they are the same strap made out of the same material and in all reality made in the same shop.

 

Now i am not a big Leupold fan. Mainly because I really feel that people are over charged for what they get. I mean for the price of a Rifleman scope you can get much better glass in brands like Nikon, Burris/Pentax, Weaver, Sightron and Bushnell.

 

I also was not impress with the Golden Ring Binoculars for the money.  They are nice but I don't feel in the same league as the BIG 3. However, I do feel that Swarovski is priced and competes right there with the others in their price range.  I don't think the EL's are worth the extra money but then again I don't think the high end Leica stuff is either.   But that is personal preference and again both are priced about equal and perform about equal.

 

The one thing to remember with both Leupold and Swarovski a name goes a long ways. While I have never needed warranty work on any scope or binocular both companies are known for taking care of the customer. That is a big plus, to know you have that peice of mind.  Also, I have sold optics off over the years and both Leupold and Swaro are well known and hold their overall value pretty well.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

AC

 

 



Edited by Acenturian
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:19
guitarman View Drop Down
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Haha that is hilarious rootmanslim.  I won't comment though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:23
rootmanslim View Drop Down
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Just a simple question. Can you supply quantitative data from independent optics and destructive testing labs to support your thesis that better scopes are available than the Rifleman for it's typical street price of $180.00? OR is it just another "expert" opinion ? And how many Rifleman do you own? And what rifles have you tested them on? you see where this is going.....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:24
rootmanslim View Drop Down
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GTman you a'int got time to type you gotta be chanting... follow me...IOR, ZEISS, SWARO, NIKON .... one down 1199 to go!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:29
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Root,GT you two idiots have wasted enough of our time with worthless posts. Stick to thinking and reading about it

2007 and beyond will go right over your heads like..........



Edited by SVD666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:29
koshkin View Drop Down
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Rootmanslim, can you supply quantitative data that a $180 Rifleman is as good as a comparably priced Burris Fullfield II, for example?  Did you send both of them to an independent lab to get tested?  In the absense of an independent lab testing, have you had a chance to look at them side by side at a resolution chart in different lighting conditions?  I have.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:32
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With all due respect SVD666, I think you have wasted your own time.  I haven't meant to offend anyone.  What did I say to qualify as an idiot?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:33
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Check your post history.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:34
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I think the name "SVD666" speaks for itself.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:34
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Thank you.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:36
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I didn't know I wasted your time I guess.  To me, you are already wasting your time by being here, as am I, hence the 1-2 week absence.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:54
Acenturian View Drop Down
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Sure I see where it is going.  So what you would like to see is my Ph.D in Optical Physics as well as any works or books I authored and published on the subject and perhaps a photo of the optical lab where I conducted the tests on the Rifleman compared to the others. Would that surfice for stating a personal opinion ? Or we could go with option (B) this is a forum hence the area for posting "personal opinions" and while in the future it may change,  we do have the first ammendment which kind of sort of grands that ablity to speak mind on the topic.

 

As far as my "expert" opinion never claimed to be one but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once How many Rifeman scopes do I own? None at the moment. I had one mounted on a .308 and it was an OK scope.I actually gave it to a for helping me with a project. (Nice guy I know )Another friend has one on a 7mm-08 and my opinion has not changed it is an "ok scope".  Do I think you can do better for the money? Yes, the Nikon Buckmaster and Burris FullField come to mind all three are about the same price and while I am no optics "expert" I do have 20/20 vision, I know water is wet and ice is cold. and the other two seem to be brighter then the Leupold and strange that all my friends (four of them) that were there on a side by side thought the same thing.

 

Look I don't think a person who buys a Leupold product is going to be ill served and that they ought to run out and throw the thing in the garbage. Quite the opposite, they still make a fine product a bit over priced in my opinion for what you get. On the other hand they are American made and they have to pay the American worker so production cost can be a factor. On the other hand Zeiss is able to build the Conquest line here and do it for a very fair price so I believe Leupold should and can lower their prices a bit. But then again why should they? They still have an American shooting public out there that still thinks it's 1963 and Leupold is the only scope worth having on a gun. As long as that "Golen ring Envy" still exists they can still charge more for a scope.

 

Happy Shooting

 

PS

By the way Root I still like ya and we can agree to disagree and if we are ever in the same camp I'd sure like a peek at the 400 H&H.

 

Guitarman: I don't know a thing about guitars (I was never coordinated enough, hell I can't brush my teeth left handed LOL ) on the other hand if I was going to buy a guitar it would only be a Gibson Les Paul.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 17:56
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I'll agree with you on 1 thing.

 

Swarovski has the best marketing department of all bino & scope makers out there.

 

I think they've pretty much gone to nearly every hunting outfitter on television in north America & Africa & gottten them to use their product. Of course I would to if they gave their scopes & binos to me for free to use on television.



Edited by Obi Wan Kenobi
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 18:20
Roy Finn View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Acenturian Acenturian wrote:

. But then again why should they? They still have an American shooting public out there that still thinks it's 1963 and Leupold is the only scope worth having on a gun. As long as that "Golen ring Envy" still exists they can still charge more for a scope.

 

It all started at Woodstock, NY. That would explain the cryogenic state of mind. Dude......



Edited by Roy Finn
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 19:21
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Acenturian, Gibson Les Pauls are overpriced for what you get, IMHO.  Just kidding!

 

I like my Nikon, I like Burrises, and I really like Leupolds.  I'm also kind of a smarta$$ sometimes lol.  I don't think that Leupold ALWAYS makes the best scopes in their class, but I think that in some instances they do.  I'm not going to put out any specifics because I don't want to spark a huge debate .  In my opinion though, if I were to spend 1200-1500 bucks on a scope, I probably wouldn't get a Leupold.  However, if I were to spend approximately 500 (which I soon will), then I would be more than willing to get a Leupold.  I really like their VX-III's (personal opinion).

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 22:19
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Actually while you were at woodstock i was covering your ass in a nasty place called south east asia.

I'll be looking forward to seeing a copy of that PHD in optics posted here.

As I have said this site is all opinions. I dont have to prove Leupold is better as I have never said that. You "experts", on the other hand are always dumping on them, so the burden of proof is on you.
You best hope you never get in court in a real legal debate as you obviously have no a clue on the rules of evidence or debate.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 23:36
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
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Things I know.

 

1. Most often you get what you pay for,there is often a reason why something is twice as expensive as something else.

 

2. Only US optics in the US makes their own lenses, so each time you buy a leupold you are sending of money to    an asian country.

 

3. People see through an optical system diffrently, they see the coulors diffrently and that is probably why some see better in Zeiss while others see better in Swarovski.

 

4. Just because it's written in a well known book 40 years ago doesent mean it's true. There is a lot of wrong things printed in books, so the best thing is to both read the books and use the items to get an opinion.

 

5. I don't judge peoples huntingskills by their gear, that can in some cases just be used as a way to judge their technical interests. Some people love quality and is prepared to pay for it, some don't care. But the quality of the hunter and the human is detected by other things than gear.

 

6. There are really good hunters around in western europe as well as the rest of the world, even though many of them are using Blasers, krieghoffs and zeiss. And I am not a better hunter than them just because all my current rifles is 40 years plus and of older designs.

 

7. An Alaskan scope while working good for O'Connor don't work at all for the type of night/duskhunting that takes places in big parts of europe.Thus more magnification and objetice size is needed even though he didnt need it.

So conclusion is that different hunting requires different gear.

 

8. Not all brands of scopes delivers decent scopes, even though the general quality of optics is far better than it has been before.

 

9. All factories have mondays and does produce a few items that never should have been sold.

 

10. Mostly "Makers" are just brand names that get their western name printied into an Asian or eastern europe scope. I don't mind them selling asian or eastern europe scopes, but it makes things weird beacuse there is not much value in the name anymore. The name of those are no longer a quality controll.

 

Regards Technika



Edited by www.technika.nu
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 23:46
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Well spoken, technika. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2007 at 23:55
rootmanslim View Drop Down
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Funny,  the big story in Rifle a few months back said the only components from Asia used by Leupold were in the Rifleman Line.

You're right about old books not always being accurate... now take Mein Kampf......

You're right we don't hunt non varmint game at night, don't have beaters to drive the game, don't run down elk (red deer) with dogs and hunting is not the almost exclusive province of the super rich.

When ANYBODY on this site produces a book as valuable as those by the authors I cited, I'll be the first to buy a copy.
40 years does not change the laws of ballistics, how game operates when really wild, required skills or hunting ethics.
The fact that some seem to think they should change is what is sad.
"Boy, get out my Blaser 300 WSM with the 6-24 SWARO, load up the ATV, get out the hounds and we'll go up to the fenced preserve and shoot something tonight."
OH BOY!
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