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THE RIFLE BARREL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 00:17
hot30 View Drop Down
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take your rifle barrel, any caliber and 26" long..

have it fluted

or a 1" BULL

or a straight taper,    in the harmonics syndrome, which has less,  which is more rigid, which sinks heat better...  It doesnt matter what its used for, which barrel does it better.??

  does fluting perform the functions that they state, better cooling and more rigid..?  Is a BULL barrel the ultamit heat sink.?   Could just "one" barrel be the ultamit configuration..?    Who has the ultamit rifle barrel out there??

 

30

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 09:06
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good question.  The flutes increase surface area for heat dissipation, as I am sure you know, but when it comes to harmonics, it depends on the caliber and the charge, as well as what the barrel is made of and how well the barrel is made and to what specifications.  Two identical barrels, bedded in two different ways, will exhibit 2 different set of harmonics, all other things, being equal.  Now, to the degree it affects the accuracy, is another story.  So, the answer to your question is, it all depends.  For hunting, again as I am sure you know, medium contour barrels or less make more sense to lighten the load and if it is a magnum, I prefer flutes, to further lighten the load and dissipate the heat, but even the latter is not necessary, if it is a pure hunter.  For competition shooting, which I do not do, obviously, again as you know, the other side of the spectrum is more important.  Hope this helps.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 09:06
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I don't have the ultimate rifle barrel, but I can tell you that a non-fluted bull barrel dosent dissipate or "sink" heat, as fast as a thinner say #1 contour barrel. However it will take more rounds to heat up a bull barrel than the #1 but once it's hot it's going to take longer to cool down. A fluted barrel has more surface area than a flat bull barrel, so it will cool down a little bit faster. I don't know if it straitens it, it seems like it might, if you think about it....

 

I hope you find this useful

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 09:07
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whoa, you beat me to the first reply by seconds...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 09:11
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Interesting reading on this very subject.

http://www.varmintal.com/aflut.htm

This guy is good...........

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 11:17
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30,
Fluting makes the barrel lighter and theoretically dissipates heat faster, but the difference in heat dissipation is so minimal that it's not worth worrying about.    Mainly the advantage is it does reduce weight, and it looks cool.

As for rigidity, a fluted barrel is more rigid than an unfluted barrel of the same WEIGHT, but an unfluted barrel of the same DIAMETER is more rigid than a fluted barrel.  Anytime you remove material, you reduce rigidity.

Also, when flutes are cut in a barrel, it can cause stress-relieving of the steel, which can cause the whole barrel, meaning the bore as well, to move, grow, warp, etc. such that the bore often isn't quite as straight and uniform as it was with more material on the o.d.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 11:23
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As for harmonics, yes, it changes the harmonic signature (generally lowers the frequency of the sine wave) of the barrel.  Anytime you remove material, you change the barrel's harmonics.  It's the same principle a barrel tuner works on.  Whether or not the harmonic change will improve or hurt accuracy varies with the rifle and load combination on a case-by-case basis.  Or, it may have no effect on accuracy.  You still have to tune your loads to the gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 11:32
tahqua View Drop Down
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Dolphin brings up a valid point when regarding the barrel as part of a system. Looking at the barrel alone is one thing and is easier to control by itself. Add action and bedding and we now have a system. But if we reduce vibration in the barrel we can reduce it in the system which is in effect an assembly. When I get to a machine with Basic I will try Varmint Al's program. This guy is really good and he has a link for SWFA to boot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 11:51
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  If you want to dig deeper in the area--just a suggestion-- Use Matlabs PDE toolbox and you will be able to vary the parameters more --- additionally get Ohlers ballistic tools with the pressure gauges and build the data to put in your Matlab model PDE kit.

Fluting suggests your already using a good tube internally, which may or may not be the case. The loads still have to be tuned to the gun.,

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 12:50
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Dale, I'm running R2006a right now and can't get it to work. Have you tried Varmint Al's program? Any tips would be great............thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 13:06
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give me 24hr.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 13:22
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

give me 24hr.

 

No rush, after I leave today I won't have Matlab until Monday. Then it's still no rush, I still would like to run it though.

Thanks

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 18:35
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

give me 24hr.

 

No rush, after I leave today I won't have Matlab until Monday. Then it's still no rush, I still would like to run it though.

Thanks

Tahqua, I agree, but running equations through a program to solve partial differential equations maybe helpful on an intellectual scale, but as you previously stated, the rifle is to be considered as an unit and the unit ultimately has to be analyzed.  Unfortunately, trial and error are the only ways to test what combination is going to work the best, of course based on previous knowledge of barrel combinations, stocks, types of bedding, calibers being used, loads, etc, as I am sure you well know and that I am preaching to the choir, with your background in mechanical engineering.  The only reason I state this, is that for others who have no knowledge of the program or solving differential equations with multiple unknowns is a daunting subject and that for the average forum poster needs to be clarified.  No offense is intended and your intellectual pursuits are well understood.



Edited by Dolphin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 20:24
hot30 View Drop Down
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If the barrel, being part of the "system" was entirely "free-floating", leaving as much of the system out of the equation, except for its anchor point(receiver), would a Bull vrs a sporter taper suffer more( im going to use a very simple term here) WHIP during bullet travel..Would you all feel that if this "whip"was managed properly, that barrel life could be extended and tayloring your ammo would play a major role in the control of harmonics..?  Ultamitly Im trying to realize if the "bull" vrs the straight-taper would "control" or be controlled more effectively..  (taper being a heavy varmint)  Is there a mechanical "advantage" to overcome whip in this taper vrs. a straight cylinder (bull)..

  Ive been scratching my head awhile on this one, I tend to dwell quite deeply on the issue..might be making it more diffacult than needs to be !!!  Some how , mechanicly the taper IMO would do the job better NOT POSATIVE , I just keep looking at the "shape" and wondering..

 

      I think Im almost there, just need some-one to throw it on my plate so I can digest it.. 

 

         THANX, 30



Edited by hot30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 21:57
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What I can say without a doubt is that a system is a sum of it's parts. If we remove the barrel from the system, reduce it's effects, i.e. less vibration, the vibration on the system will be reduced. If this seems to be to deep I will gladly take this question off line. But the question, as presented, requires an in depth analysis. Vibrations is an interesting field and I believe that an answer here can be made available to everyone regardless of background. This answer will require some in depth study, though. Bottom line, the thermo part of the initial question is easy-more surface area=more heat dissapation, all things being equal.

If we look at a fluted barrel, the assumption is that vibration will be reduced as the distance each wave travels is increased due to more surface area. The more distance that these vibrations travel, the greater the damping effect from the material. That, also, is with all things being equal and neglecting resonance. I have looked at Varmint Al's program and I am very interested in using it, afterall, he is a supporter of SWFA. SWFA has given me the most enjoyable web experience, ever. Enough said.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 22:13
hot30 View Drop Down
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Tahqua, dont take what im asking as contradictory or negatively.. I am in no-way going against you or your theory, any of you for that matter !!  If I read you correctly you are "offended"...  Dont be.!  If I didnt think this forum couldnt assist me in my quest, "I appologize" and I wouldnt have asked the question in the first place..But I did..!!  I contine to ask questions and add information to merely assist those willing to help me in finding my answer..

 

       Reguards, To all of you          30

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 22:45
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As far as barrel life is concerned, I do not think it is going to make a difference, all other things being equal.  Internal ballistics dictate an entirely different concern than external ballistics.  You can have a 4 inch thick barrel and an over bore caliber that will still limit your barrel life.  Now, the fluting will dissipate heat better and the bull barrels, while taking longer to heat, will take longer to cool, the bottom line, is if you are shooting a hot caliber, you have to let the barrel cool before another string of shots.  As other threads have shown, barrel life is a matter of question.  If you are talking about 0.5 MOA that is one thing, if you are talking about 2 MOA that is another.  As a non-competetive shooter, I judge barrel life, by how it will do for hunting purposes.  You may want to judge it on another perspective.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2007 at 22:57
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Dolphin, what do you think of this "3" groove rifeling stuff.? Some like it because it is supposed to clean up better.. Ive been told that it reduces friction (heat) better than anything goin..  My buddies hunt with it, accuracy appears to be the same as anything else, I know heat isnt the main issue unless your on a PD town half the day, wonder if smooth-bore is a solution.?    120mm

 

    And thank you,     30

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 07:27
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Are you talking about a barrel with only 3 grooves?  I have no personal experience with those barrels and have only read the routine forum post regarding people who have used them.  It makes sense, that they would clean up easier, only 3 grooves to clean as opposed to 6.  Lilja has been making 3 grooved barrels for several years and they claim to have the equivalent accuracy and up to "20%" longer barrel life in the hot 22 caliber varminter rounds.  Although, I assume you already know this.  Basically, if you plan to shoot a hot round, alot of times, just plan to rebarrel in the future and not worry about the exact number of rounds.  Based on all of the above, take your pick and go with it and have fun.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 09:46
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Hi guys, I am not offended at all. I thought you might be getting bored with this. If you check out Varmint Al's web site you will find tons of info. I thought this one page was some of the best information out there pertaining to barrels. I just mentioned going off line with this just in case the interest wasn't there. The initial qusetion from 30 addressed harmonics and that did get my attention. I will try and get that program to run and get back. I hope that you don't consider this a hijack.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 11:31
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Tahqua see pm
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 20:39
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Varmital mentions a way to measure vibrations using Recreational (software-I think). Using a somewhat different approach than pressure measurement such as Oehlers. This package allows one to measure the best load harmonics for the gun under test if anyone is interested.

Love fluted barrels.

 

Bushmaster, 1/9, 6.5x20 Leo 24 in,

 

 

provarmiter Mod 84 Kimber .233 1/9 twist, 20" 4.5x14 Leo Varmit reticle

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 20:40
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Tahqua, you can "hijack" me anytime you want..  I do see this comment on forums often..  Forums are open to all those wishing to partake, yes..?

 

                              Reguards, Hot 30

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 21:06
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Thanks 30.

You have been posting some nice gun pics today, Dale. That Leo looks pretty good on that Kimber. They sure to proportion their scopes nicely.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 21:33
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Tahqua, this might be a "far shot", whats your take on the "3" groove barrel.. Back to harmonics, besides being easier to clean (?) the trend seems to be tword this configuration..  The military likes the "smooth-bore" these days..  Looked at Varmint Als computer sim, have a good understanding for this stuff but Im not an analyst.. The lands and grooves on the 3 groove barrel are very "wide" vrs a , lets say a 5 cut barrel..Im wondering about the "control" of the bullet as it is being " supported" on it trip down the barrel rather than being reshaped by conventional rifling.. Less harmonics maybe ??

 

                     30

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