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The New March Genesis 6-60x56 FFP

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2018 at 12:48
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The latest offering from March Optics is the 6-60x56mm. FFP scope designed for ELR shooters.

Here's a picture, followed by specifications:

http://www.marchscopes.co.uk/genesis-6x-60x56.html


(To acquire the picture and information, highlight the link, right click on your mouse, and choose "Open Link".)

Made the link hot



Edited by tahqua - March/10/2018 at 13:50
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2018 at 19:58
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Very very interesting!!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2018 at 02:08
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What.  Is this for real?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2018 at 03:07
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Yep, being touted as the next big thing. Though I've never really got on with March scopes I must admit
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2018 at 18:10
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It is for real, but not quite here yet.  It should be an interesting solution for ELR.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2018 at 20:15
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 For all that it provides, the price seems to be reasonable, as well.  Looks like a game changer.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2018 at 21:40
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my that is a lot of magnification should be intense being behind a 60x
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/14/2018 at 11:01
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:


For all that it provides, the price seems to be reasonable, as well.  Looks like a game changer.


In what way?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/14/2018 at 14:47
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 I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that I expect this scope to be of the same excellent quality of every March scope I've had my hands on... now 10 of them.

First, it requires no rings... attachment built in... only needs a rail (that does not have to have any slope).  It has 400MOA of elevation adjustment, approximately 300 "UP".  The adjustments on every March I've touched have been excellent... I expect the same on this entry.  Being March, it will have excellent glass.   I like the reticle.  It has enough magnification to actually "keep up" with EXTREME Long Range shooting (yeah, I know, the objective isn't really big enough for that magnification, but, for me, I think it will be adequate).  To me, it is in a reasonable price range for what is being provided.  Most of all, I expect it to force most of the "big optics providers" to step up THEIR game a bit to try to keep up.  (once "the box" is opened... it can't/won't be closed)  Therefore, it changes the "game".  I've already heard some mutterings that "they are trying to do too much in one package".  I don't think so... I have a lot of faith in technology and mechanics.  It weighs 3.3lbs... there are others that do with MUCH less capability.

OK, it is a "niche" market.. but that "niche" grows larger every day...  It may be more magnification than I ever need.  But it doesn't matter to me if I "NEED" it... just that I want it... and someday, I may need it...

I know there are a number of assumptions there, but I expect the best of people/companies... sometimes disappointed, sometimes not.  So far, in most categories, the "nots" are winning...

If I stay with "traditional optics", this one is very high on my list.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/14/2018 at 15:16
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For me, traditional optics does not even come close to this scope.....and mil-MOA?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/14/2018 at 15:30
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⬆️ Im with Doug.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/14/2018 at 15:32
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 I'm talking "traditional optics" versus digital...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/14/2018 at 16:33
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I see Dan, but as a hunter this beast leaves much to be desired aesthetically.
Maybe this thread should be in tactical scopes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/15/2018 at 11:24
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 There are circumstances where I could see using it for hunting, but it is certainly not intended as a primary hunting scope... not in those power ranges... but not eliminated, either.  There are also tactical applications, many, but I don't see this as primarily tactical, either.  Probably more a competition scope, at least from my perspective.  But, to say for sure, would have to use one a bit to truly get a good feel.  Digital scopes are certainly not intended for entirely tactical applications.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2018 at 00:34
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

 I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that I expect this scope to be of the same excellent quality of every March scope I've had my hands on... now 10 of them.

First, it requires no rings... attachment built in... only needs a rail (that does not have to have any slope).  It has 400MOA of elevation adjustment, approximately 300 "UP".  The adjustments on every March I've touched have been excellent... I expect the same on this entry.  Being March, it will have excellent glass.   I like the reticle.  It has enough magnification to actually "keep up" with EXTREME Long Range shooting (yeah, I know, the objective isn't really big enough for that magnification, but, for me, I think it will be adequate).  To me, it is in a reasonable price range for what is being provided.  Most of all, I expect it to force most of the "big optics providers" to step up THEIR game a bit to try to keep up.  (once "the box" is opened... it can't/won't be closed)  Therefore, it changes the "game".  I've already heard some mutterings that "they are trying to do too much in one package".  I don't think so... I have a lot of faith in technology and mechanics.  It weighs 3.3lbs... there are others that do with MUCH less capability.

OK, it is a "niche" market.. but that "niche" grows larger every day...  It may be more magnification than I ever need.  But it doesn't matter to me if I "NEED" it... just that I want it... and someday, I may need it...

I know there are a number of assumptions there, but I expect the best of people/companies... sometimes disappointed, sometimes not.  So far, in most categories, the "nots" are winning...

If I stay with "traditional optics", this one is very high on my list.


I do not think there is going to be much of a response to this scope from other scope makers, although anything is possible.

Externally adjustable scope is an old idea, but March does have a new take on it which I find interesting.  For ELR, the scope will need to be lifted higher, otherwise the barrel will get in the way.  The scope is still in development, so a lot of things are still unknown.  I think the configuration as presented is a missed opportunity for March to really differentiate themselves, but we'll see how it all looks when the development is finished.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2018 at 20:32
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 Depends on market response.  However, I believe it will cause some adjustment range increases.  Yes, we will have to wait and see how it turns out.  But March is pretty good...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/15/2018 at 12:47
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I sent an message to March asking whether the elevation dials limited the use of the internal elevation travel. Their reply is pretty interesting:

Thank you for your inquiry. March scopes are not travel limited by the dials and often have a bit more range than advertised, however we cannot make any claims as to how much further any particular scope will go due to variations from one scope to the next.

Extreme long range scopes present a tough challenge for modern scope manufacturers, particularly when tasked with being able to shoot 2 plus miles all the way down to 100 yards. The technical issues here go beyond developing a scope with an erector tube that has a huge range of motion. All traditional rifle scopes suffer from a loss of clarity the further away the turrets are dialed from the optical centerline of the scope. This is a universal truth that applies to every telescopic rifle scope but it is seldom brought up or talked about. As each manufacturer tries to one-up their competition, range of turret adjustment has grown and grown to the point that the optics can be pretty poor at the extremes of their travel. High end scopes like March are caught in a conundrum where they prefer to limit turret adjustment based on the optical clarity they want their scopes to have but feel pressured to keep up with industry trends set by their competitors of selling scopes with more and more range of adjustment. For most shooting disciplines, an appropriate MOA base can be purchased to get a rifle on target at most any distance while keeping the turrets fairly close to the optical centerline. The further the range, the more important this becomes so that optical clarity can be maximized at greater distances.

The new March Genesis scope has broken away from this traditional approach and its inherent limitations. Instead of using an erector tube to shift the internal position of the reticle off-center in the lens assembly, they have designed a scope within a scope such that the shooter is always looking through the centerline of the internal lenses. That inner scope is then physically aimed as a unit using the external turrets in a unique sealed gimble mechanism. So, in addition to eliminating the possibility of zoom shift by using a First Focal Plane design and the convenience of a tree reticle in the first focal plane, they have maximized optical clarity at every turret setting, no matter how extreme.

Let me review the latest data for the Genesis scope. It comes with 150 MOA built into the integral Picatinny mount, has 350 MOA of elevation travel up and 50 MOA of elevation travel down. The tree reticle has 100 MOA of hold-over and hold-under. This means that to get to your 100 yard zero, you have to match the 150 MOA mount going back down. To do this you need to dial the turret down 50 MOA and use the 100 MOA of hold-under on the reticle. This should be no problem considering that 100 yards at a 2-mile competition should seem very close up. On the distance end however, you have the 150 MOA in the base plus 350 MOA more in the turret for 500 MOA up and that is before you even get into the lower half of the tree reticle. Windage also has ample range with 75 MOA on tap in either direction with turret markings that make it easy to keep track of full rotations.

I noted that the vast majority of the scopes on your list are under 30x. At ranges over 1000 yards, the 60x capability of the Genesis should deliver a noticeable advantage, especially considering the clarity of the optics and the optically centered field of view that never wavers. The tree reticle will be available in both Mil and MOA divisions to keep everyone happy. The factory is working hard to get this scope into production but we don’t yet have an expected delivery date. We are very excited about this scope because of its unique design, extreme range of adjustment, high magnification optics and solid design and construction. The Genesis scope is aptly named; it promises to be a real game changer for ELR competitions. Here’s a link to keep up on details and availability: http://marchopticsusa.com/shop/brand_march-optics/firstfocalplane/6-60x56mm-scope

Best Regards,

Dave Albers
Optical Technician
March Optics USA


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/16/2018 at 00:50
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I know and like Dave Albers and he is a good advocate for March.

Genesis is a new take on an old idea of using external adjustments in riflescopes.  It is not a bad way to go, of done right and March may very well do it right.  The proof is always in the actual use, so we will know more when the product gets there.

There are several things in the way they configured the Genesis scope that are weird to me and some things that Dave says are odd to me.  That having been said, I am very curious to see how this scope does.

There is more than one way to do ELR, and I am not convinced that the Genesis design is the best way to go about, but it is definitely a viable way.  We will see how it all shakes out.

ILya 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/16/2018 at 10:51
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I'm curious how the Genesis compares to setups using adjustable bases like the Cold Shot and Ivey or with a Charlie TARAC. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2018 at 01:13
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Conceptually, I like the TARAC, primarily because it works with multiple scopes and because it raises the line of sight a bit.

Still, it is nice to have options.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2018 at 22:46
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This sort of scope is way out of my league in application but I find the philosophy behind it most interesting.

I have long doubted the optical and mechanical integrity of using an articulated erector tube to give the now-conventional constantly centred reticle and understand that Unertl and B&L rued the advent of any internal adjustments. In explaining this new scope, March certainly reminds us of the optical failings of the 60-year-old image-movement concept.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/28/2018 at 00:52
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Sambarman, you really have it out for erector tubes.  While it is an interesting argument, the simple fact that there are plenty of well made and reliable scopes on the market with articulated erector assemblies, sorta counters your point.  

I have a fair amount of mileage with non-centered reticles and I am decidedly not a fan.  It is all fine and dandy when the mounting system is nice and straight, but if you end up with a reticle way off from the center of the field of view, it really hampers with the speed of acquisition of the aiming point.  Once we start looking at more sophisticated grid type reticle, I definitely do not want it tucked away in the corner of the FOV.

Durability argument is, I think, pure nonsense at this point.

With external adjustments like with the March scopes that this thread is about or with Elcan scopes that I like quite a bit, it is a more interesting argument.

I grew in a country that basically turned to a sea of mud about four months of every year (and is frozen stiff for another four moths or so), so I originally viewed any adjustments exposed to the elements with great suspicion.  I have to admit though, that despite some serious efforts, the external adjustments on my Elcan Specter OS never skipped a beat.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/29/2018 at 04:02
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Thanks Ilya,
yes, there do seem to be some well-made image-movement scopes these days (Nightforce and Nikon spring to mind) but the victory comes from incremental patching of a concept that is basically fragile.

My defence of the old reticle-movement scopes assumes the user gets them installed properly, by a gunsmith if he can't manage it himself. The use of windage mounts and the odd shim to get the reticle so close to centre you won't notice any asymmetry is not rocket science but does save the need for a mini-me bouncing around inside your scope at every shot. While I've heard of receiver screw-holes and barrels out of alignment, I wonder if that worry is overplayed. With the  scopes I've installed on Anschutz, Sako and Tikka rifles, I've been amazed how well things did line up above their dovetailed receivers. Even the crappy Tikka mounts with no lateral adjustments put the scopes straight in line with the bore sight and only a few mm higher than was needed.

As to durability, image-movement is fine on rabbit rifles, but my concern is mainly to do with those used for big game. A US contact has rattled the guts out of many modern scopes on 458 Lotts etc, often within 100 rounds of installation. America's favorite brand got so sick of him sending scopes back they cobbled up a special one, just for him, which is still going after 1500 shots on the Lott and .505.  He says its reticle is constantly centred but, since the power is only 2x and he always puts scopes on straight anyway, I think he is mistaken. Why? Because he told me the makers said the reticle was in the first focal plane and therefore would not let him down.

If anything, adding that minuscule weight to the front of the erector tube instead of the rear could add extra leverage under recoil. FFP can add reliability in variables but this is a fixed-power scope. The only way I can see an FFP reticle helping durability is if the erector set has been fixed solidly in the outer tube, as they all were before 1956, after which the only movable mass within the scope is the reticle ring held against the turret screws. Whatever springs modern makers use to hold up their erector tubes, they could not be stronger than the one I found supporting the reticle in an old Nickel scope - and it only needed to locate one-tenth of the mass.

The company who supplied that special 2x scope made models with no internal adjustments into the early '60s and did not succumb to image-movement until 1964. My bet is they found some old bits that fitted a modern tube and made it with them.

I must look into those March and Elcan mounts you mention.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/29/2018 at 22:45
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Just so that I understand this better: you are looking to take scope technology back by 50 years or so in order to accomodate all of two dozen people out there who regularly shoot 458Lott and bigger calibers out there.  Or am I missing something?

Apparently, everything smaller than an elephant gun is now a rabbit rifle.  Isn't that a little condescending?

I am assuming the company you are referring to as "America's favourite brand" is Leupold.  I am not sure why you are avoiding calling them by name.  They are no longer the largest brand in the sporting optics world, but are still in the top three.

Their 2.5x and 3x scopes have a good reputation for holding up on heavy recoiling rifles, but this is sorta outside my expertise.  It is such a small segment of the market that it is statistically insignificant.  Perhaps, there are scopes out there specifically aimed at the boomers, but I am not sure it is a large enough niche for anyone to focus on it.

A few year ago, Bushnell marketed a 1.25-8x32 Elite 6500 with six inches of eye relief.  I always assumed it is for use on kickers, but I never tested that hypothesis.  I do have one of those.

There is really nothing particularly complicated in making a scope with internals beefed up enough to survive use on heavy recoiling guns.  You pay a penalty in price and weight, but that is largely it.   There is no need to go to a non-centered reticle to achieve that.   On top of that, this is a market niche that is quite literally dying out since it mostly consists of older hunters who grew on elephant hunting stories.  If I were a rifle scope manufacturer, I would ignore it too.

All the R&D money right now is going into high erector ratios, advanced illumination schemes and ever increasing digital integration.

ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/30/2018 at 00:34
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Well, ILya, I wonder why you're so defensive if the market is as cut and dried as you say. The reason I did not specify the favorite brand was because I did not wish to single it out for criticism. As I've said, they just got caught up in the simplistic marketing BS of the 1950s and '60s, as did the Germans and Austrians eventually, though the Continentals at least let the patents run out first.

So, for my edification, which are the largest brands in the sporting-optics world?

Much as you assert there is no problem with image-movement scopes for smaller-calibre hunting rifles, the forums seem filled with complaints about them failing to hold zero. The flip-side to this is the number of people so impressed with makers' generous warranties. One man I recall found a nice lurk buying old scopes from pawn shops and, if anything internal was wrong with them, send them back to the maker to be replaced with new ones.

To my mind this is just the most convenient way to cope with a design that is intrinsically dodgy. Casual users won't shoot enough to have it affect them and an increased percentage of spare scopes takes care of those that do. Then, instead of people getting angry, they get a warm fuzzy from the great service.

The real problem comes when you're on that hunt of a lifetime. And despite your waving it aside as irrelevant, cheap air travel has led to more and more hunters aspiring to African safaris. The dangerous game may less often be elephants but few clients hunt buffalo with a much-smaller rifle. Many such hunters use scopes on their heavy and medium rifles - and there's the rub.

If your scope goes off in the middle of Tanzania, is that warranty going to help you in time?

That all the research is going into illumination and 'digital integration' does not do it for me. This stuff might be good and fine for pest destruction but if recreational hunting is to continue to have any element of sport, we owe it to our quarry to maintain standards of fair chase. Electronics in hunting would be a clear place to draw a line in the sand.

The most sporting aspect of illumination is probably the chance that it might break down on you once you've become totally addicted to it - just when the beast of your dreams appears. I could fill a chapter with this discussion but hopefully you've got the idea.
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