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the "15 extra minutes" debate

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2011 at 08:39
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Got into a debate with a guy on another forum...
He was basically saying his older Leupold would allow him to hunt until past legal hunting time and more expensive scopes weren't worth it..

My response:

There's more than just brightness, there's resolution and contrast... being able to positively distinguish between 2 deer at 300 yards under the edge of trees at last light.

As a buddy of mine recently pointed out that a scope he was testing for me would have got allowed him to confidently shoot at 200 yards at the end of legal hunting time where his older scope of the same power and objective size was more like 125 yards for the same shot...

That is pretty significant

Would people really spend the money if it weren't worth it?
I sure as heck wouldn't, money is way to hard to come by to buy stuff just for ego's sake

As my buddy pointed out that it's not just the extra time, it's distance at last light

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2011 at 08:41
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For some hunters it is not worth it for others it is......all depends.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2011 at 08:43
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Sounds like someone who is proud of his Leupold and probably has no real experience with good stuff.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 15:19
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We all justify things to ourselves based upon our income levels.  Do I buy better scopes so I can see better for the last 1/2 hour, heck yes.  Do I spend 1500 on a scope, or buy NV scopes so I can do that, no, due mostly on income levels.  Would I like to have a high end NV set, yes.
 
I definately notice a difference between the 200 dollar scopes and the 500, and believe they help me make good shooting decisions.  I've been hunting with people at dusk and they think the buck at 300 yds is a shooter, and when I have them look with my scope they decide it isn't. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 15:30
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If the deer hides till sundown, the deer wins. It's part of hunting. 


If it's important to someone to be able to shoot past legal hours, why don't they just get a spotlight?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 16:48
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not talking about illegal hunting...

How exactly do you determine exactly when 30 minutes past sundown is?

And sometimes it's just a dark, overcast evening or thick in the trees where there's not that much light being let in.. or on the east side of a hill..
or a combo of all of the above





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 16:53
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Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:



There's more than just brightness, there's resolution and contrast... being able to positively distinguish between 2 deer at 300 yards under the edge of trees at last light.





That pretty well sums up why I think high end scopes are worth it for some applications. That and the proper reticle.
In Michigan, the sunrise and sunset times are posted in the hunting guide. The 30 minute before and after times are listed. They also plus times in six minute increments based on latitude in our state.


Edited by tahqua - January/16/2011 at 16:54
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 16:54
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Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:

Got into a debate with a guy on another forum...
He was basically saying his older Leupold would allow him to hunt until past legal hunting time and more expensive scopes weren't worth it..

 
Sounds like you were arguing with Eremicus who has never even looked through 99% of the scopes he talks about.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 17:48
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The hunting conditions can play a huge role in how much scope you need. Hunting in South Dakota, my old Redfield scopes have always been fine out to 1/2 hr. after sundown. It wasn't until I went to the Black Hills, and hunted some heavy timber, and mountains that I could see the need for better glass. I shot a deer out there at extended range, in VERY low light that I'd have never been able to see with a lesser scope. There IS a difference. You just need to decide if your hunting conditions warrant needing the advantage.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 18:16
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In the three states that I"ve hunted in there was always a schedule of the times of sun rise & sun set in the booklet I was given when I purchased my hunting license.I'm not always correct but I'm ethical & isn't that part of what a hunter is all about?
 
If an individual has to kill an animal after the time rule schedule not only is he cheating,he doesn't even qualify as someone to be called a Hunter.There are many on this board[I'm one of them]who have let animals walk because it wasn't the humain thing to do by taking a shot.
 
To argue with someone about when sunrise sunset rules are in affect is just talking to a deaf ear.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 19:45
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Originally posted by stickbow46 stickbow46 wrote:

In the three states that I"ve hunted in there was always a schedule of the times of sun rise & sun set in the booklet I was given when I purchased my hunting license.I'm not always correct but I'm ethical & isn't that part of what a hunter is all about?
 
If an individual has to kill an animal after the time rule schedule not only is he cheating,he doesn't even qualify as someone to be called a Hunter.There are many on this board[I'm one of them]who have let animals walk because it wasn't the humain thing to do by taking a shot.
 
To argue with someone about when sunrise sunset rules are in affect is just talking to a deaf ear.
+1 and count me in as one of them too
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 20:08
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Age and night vision ability is also a factor. Someone with good eyes and a great pupil dilation will probably see better with a Leupold in low light than I ever could wilth a Swarovski. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 20:38
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There are many hunting areas in Alabama where the "thicket" is so dense one just COULD NOT make out the difference between a good "shooting" buck and one that is not so good. in dawn/dusk conditions with lower quality scope glass.  High end glass is aways a determinant in being able to make the choice of whether to shoot a "wall hanger" or a "meat" deer.  Alabama is a "poacher" state... so, to many it doesn't matter.  However, those of us who DO discriminate between young and ignorant deer vs older and wiser (and therefore more trophy potential) deer use "better glass" in the hours when it makes a difference.  I have scopes that allow seeing the antler points in all conditions transitioning from dark to light and light to dark... AND, I have scopes that someone using them and possessing the BEST possible eyesight could take a deer in low light, but could not for the life of them tell you how many pionts it had... only that "it has "horns"".  I choose the rifle/scope combination based upon my personal hunting constraints... in other words, the conditions I set for myself to determine what conditions I am going to hunt in.  Since most of my hunting in Alabama is restricted, because of terrain, to about 100 yards or less, I can hunt with far less overall quality of scope than if I were able to hunt out to 250, 300 or 400 yards.  The "good" glass still helps with POA/POI, but it is not so critical as when shooting at longer ranges and in low light conditions.  If I am hunting in daylight only, I can get by with a much lesser quality scope.  I've passed on a LOT of deer because i was using a "cheaper" scope and didn't come out of the woods as soon as I intended.  Some might go ahead and take the shot, but I never have and never will shoot something that I don't know EXACTLY what I am shooting.  I would even go so far as to say the the worse shot you are, the better glass you need... simply to keep your @$$ out of trouble.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 20:43
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TO ME THE PROBLEM WITH LEUPOLD IS THAT THEIR UPPER LINE SCOPES COST TOO MUCH FOR WHAT YOU GET.I WOULD RATHER GO TO THE SAMPLE LIST AND ADD ABOUT $300 AND GET A SWAROVSKI PH 1-6X42 FOR$995 THAT WILL SMOKE ANYTHING THEY HAVE AND HUNT WITH IT A FEW YEARS AND IF I WANT TO SELL GET MOST OF MY MONEY BACK.HERE IN MY STATE MOST OF US GUYS HAVE A SIMPLE HUNTING RULE FOR WHITETAILS-WE HUNT TILL IT GETS DARK AND THEN GET DOWN.WE TAKE MANY DEER THAT REQUIRE HIGH QUALITY OPTICS OR YOU SIMPLY CANT MAKE THE SHOT.I HAVE TRIED VARIOUS LEUPOLDS,BUSHNELLS AND NIKONS.THEY JUST CANT DO IT EFFECTIVELY.ZEISS,SWAROVSKI,SCHMIDT AND BENDER AND DOCTER ARE A DIFFERENT ANIMAL ALTOGETHER THOUGH.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 21:05
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In my experience in using the mid priced scopes ($300-$500) is that you can see thru the scope fairly well in dimming light but the crosshairs become invisible.
I have addressed that by trying Burris Electro-dot and Bushnell Firefly scopes. The illumination features help a lot of course but an added bonus is that the crosswire construction in both of these models is much thicker than the standard reticles offered. They equal or even exceed the thickness of 4A style posts. This alone makes them perform well in low light situations. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 22:12
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Ok now let me ask you guys this.  Having never hunted with a top of the line scope I can see deer 30 minutes after sunset in my scopes.  I could not however be able to tell how many points a buck has. I am blind in one eye so when it gets to be about 15 minutes after sunset I can't see much.  If I look through my scope l (my favorite  gun has a 15 year old Leu 2.5-8 vxlll) I can see til the 30 minutes past.  As an example last fall a deer came out onto a field edge about 150 yards away right at the last couple minutes.  I couldn't see it with my naked eye but happened to sweep the woods edge with my rifle and there it was, I could tell it was a nice buck but just that.  I couldn't tell if it was an 8 10 or 6.  So with a great scope I could have seen  points??   (Somehow I changedj to italics here lol.)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 22:33
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WHATEVER YOU SEEN THROUGH YOUR LEUPOLD YOU WOULD SEE BETTER THROUGH A SWAROVSKI OR ZEISS DIAVARI OR OTHER PREMIUM EURO.THERE WOULD BE BETTER CONTRAST AND RESOLUTION ALONG WITH A BRIGHTER VIEW.IT'S KINDA LIKE WHAT AN OPTICS DEALER TOLD ME WHEN I WAS CONSIDERING A MEOPTA SCOPE.HE SAID- WELL ME AND THE THE MEOPTA REP RODE DOWN THE ROAD TO A FIELD ABOUT DARK AND TOOK THE MEOPTA AND WE COULD TELL THAT THERE WAS DEER IN THE FIELD.WE TOOK THE SWAROVSKI AND COULD SEE WHICH WERE BUCKS AND WHICH WERE DOES.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 23:08
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Originally posted by Cooper25 Cooper25 wrote:

I could tell it was a nice buck but just that.  I couldn't tell if it was an 8 10 or 6.  So with a great scope I could have seen  points??   (Somehow I changedj to italics here lol.)

Yes.  That's precisely the kind of advantage a top quality scope (and a large objective helps too) can give you. 

Many, like the guy the OP mentioned, don't quite realize just because you can still "see" through a scope, even see well enough to center the tawny blob, does not mean you can well or see far.  Much the same as those claiming a 1-4X20 gets the job done for them in legal hours because they can still "see" through it.  Well, if there's something 10 yds away, sure.  But for any distance and if you need to see something well, more magnification helps, which requires larger objective...and without good quality glass much of the advantage is lost.

In any case, for the situation you describe, with a really nice scope like those I've used the past few years I'd crank the power up to 8X, 10X, 12X, etc, depending upon the light and be able to easily see if I wanted to pull the trigger on that buck.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2011 at 23:15
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In MT, times are posted for legal shooting hours. For whatever reason, I have only had one time in the last five years where I had an animal in my sights right at dusk. It was actually with a 4X Leupold FX-II. The backdrop was very challenging, but the distance was only about 75 yards. Although I haven't yet had the opportunity to need it, I think the higher quality optics are worth it. The only disadvantage I can really think of is that size, length and weight might be more, depending on the scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2011 at 09:36
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What state does that poacher live in? Im never going out after dusk if I'm ever in the same county with him!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2011 at 10:19
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No one is advising hunting illegally, which to most of us that also means unethically and our morals won't allow us to do that..

So, can we keep that out of the conversation ?





Edited by ccoker - January/17/2011 at 10:19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2011 at 13:41
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I hunted with my fine old Burris 4x28 FF for many years. I had it on a 30.06 and a 7mag at various times. I also took a fine mule deer at well over 300 yds. It was during daylight and across a canyon. The shot was no problem.
Several years later I was watching a large whitetail through my Zeiss 7x42 binoculars. The deer was out over 300 yds across a marsh. He was on the edge of a banana shaped mixed pine and hardwood stand on the lake shore. It was during the last half hour of legal hunting and it was overcast with a light snow blowing. He was also moving in and out of the saplings that were on the edge of the taller cover. I brought up my trusty Burris 4X and could not see to make the shot. That 7mag now has a 2.2-9x42 Kahles L on it. I have since taken bucks from that same stand in similar conditions.
I haven't the coin to put scopes like that on all my guns. But my go to big game guns have them. The bottom line is that if I can see the animal with my Zeiss binoculars, I need to be able to make the shot with my scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2011 at 14:18
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Another option, and opinion for that matter, is to use a good pair of binoculars for evaluating the game. I prefer to search for and size up deer with the binos before taking aim with the rifle. I've also had good success using a 1-4x24 at ranges exceeding 10 yards. This past season I shot a doe at 170 yards just before sunset while it was snowing.  I'm sure a higher power scope would have been better, but the one I had worked.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2011 at 14:26
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I definitely believing in using good binos...

I have also had a nice buck slip by as I went from binos (SHOOTER!) to rifle, arg
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2011 at 19:54
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Originally posted by jetwrnch jetwrnch wrote:

I prefer to search for and size up deer with the binos before taking aim with the rifle. I've also had good success using a 1-4x24 at ranges exceeding 10 yards. 

Well, with a 1-4 you have no other choice.   

While sizing up with binos is a great idea, if all you can see through your scope are "roughly deer shaped tawny blobs," especially if there are a bunch of them milling about the best view in the world through binos won't prevent you from shooting the wrong one.  I've had numerous occasions where one buck is just a little bigger than the other and especially when they're running around sparing during the rut it's hard to keep track of which is which.  Not being able to tell with your scope is a disadvantage.

Secondly, not just in low light but when great distance is involved, typical 6-8X binocs simply don't do the job as well.  In order to do as good a job as a 15X-25X scope with high quality glass in prone with a bipod, you need a set of "bigeyes" on a tripod.  While I do use those in many situations (mainly for help finding the animals) I don't carry them with me at all times.  Even when I do they take a while to set up.  When deer have been positively identified as deer with small binocs so there are no safety concerns, I don't waste any time preparing for the shot.  As ccoker mentions, big guys don't need much time to give you the slip.
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