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The 1000 yard scope

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2005 at 14:25
CRS004 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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Greetings All.

Do any of you expert optics guru types have an opinion on decent scopes that can realistically be used to spot on a 1000 yard range, from cheap and adequate   up to selling your kids expensive and visually outstanding? 

Thanks chaps!

Callum
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2005 at 09:33
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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1000 yd shooting usually depends on the contrast between the target and the backdrop, the higher and bigger the more scopes that can be included. Don't forget that the British SMLE's with iron sights were used for trained rifle fire at 1000 yds withonly iron sights. (After trying this I concluded it only worked for a whole bunch of bullets in a statistical area like shooting arrows). Although it did work pretty consistent at 500 yds. David Tubbs does it all summer with iron sights. Hitting standard man sized target about 10X is a good starting point. Is the question at what break off point is needed to identify a friendly from a foe? Or is the question I want to shoot at some area on the target at 1000 yds?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2005 at 13:57
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Optics GrassHopper
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Thanks Dale.

I used to fire No4 Mk1* in the UK at 1000 yards, but we had the benefit of someone in the butts with a telephone telling you how good (or crap) you were. Or if that wasn't working, wave a flag if you missed, or a big pointy stick showing where your group was centered.  Hitting a man size target with the good old 303 at that range was fine with iron sights. The rear sight even went up to 1300 yards! When I came to the USA, I went out and bought an Enfield (now 3) - it's not that comfortable to shoot, but I love it. The rifle of choice that I have now for the 1000 yard range, is a Savage .308 10FP-LE (action no where near as good as the Enfield) with a Choat stock and Super Sniper 10x42.
But my real question is, as I don't have Sgt, Joe in the butts any more, can I use a spotting scope instead, and, can they be had cheaply. Or do I need to spend a fortune on German Optics?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/19/2005 at 10:03
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Using a spotting scope for this reason is about the only real good use for one. Most need very solid supports as the power range is in the 60x and yes about any medium quality one will do the job you are asking. I do it all the time with a really old Bushnell Trophy. No you do not need over priced German optics for anything except bragging rights. It is unfortunate that american bolt users are not taught the the SMLE bolt style of working the bolt with the thumb and index and the trigger finger with second finger with the butt end dug in the dirt. While the action on the Savage is not as as smooth as the SMLE it is "better" action and allows headspacing to occur on the shoulder of the 308, which is almost impossible with the screw in head spacing method of the SMLE.

If you are thinking about any optics capable of resolving bullet holes at 1000 yd. forget it. We use a combination of the dirt no dirt method. Solid steel ringers or most of the time vibration sensors hooked to the ringers with a green light set up about 25 yds. away. I believe the set up came from Competition Electronics.



Edited by Dale Clifford
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2005 at 23:53
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             I have been to the 1000 yard range about 5 times now.  With that little bit of experience, I can tell you quite frankly that seeing a bullet hole would require optics far in excess of my paltry budget.  We do as was mentioned before; looking for dirt clods to explode or not to explode to see if we missed. 

             That said, I am sure someone might make something that will allow you to see way out there, but my question to you is do you want to spend that kind of money for only that reason?  How many shots in real life actually require us to hit at 1000 yards, and if we are talking about hunting, would anything have enough umph to go out there and kill whatever it was we were aiming at?  Good questions? 

                However there are guys I know that regularly spend the afternoons plinking at this kind of yardage, so I guess they are the ones that wish to spend that kind of money to get optics that you could spot the rings of Saturn with, but as was said before, how much other use could you get out of that sort of an instrument?  Not much in my book, but then everyone has their own ceiling that stops them from just spending all sorts of money on everything, don't they? To many guys that ceiling is their wives, to the rest of us, it is probably that we don't shoot all that much that we could afford all of that, for just shooting at 1000 yards when we could spend the rest of our money on another rifle or another scope.

             Good Luck in your search!

                    SEB

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2006 at 12:48
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Optics GrassHopper
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I think I have a solution!

In this day and age of wonderous technology, I am thinking that the best way to see a fixed target at this range would be to set up a small CCD camera near the target (in a bullet proof box!) and use a low cost tramsmitter to beam the picture back to the firing line and view it on a little TV. I suspect you could have the whole thing up and running - battery powered - for under $300.

A tad cheaper than your own geo - sink spy sat!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2006 at 12:07
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The spotting scopes that wil show you bullet holes at 1000 yards are the $2000 ones, with ED glass and 60x objectives. Nikon 82ED is very good, it costs a bit less.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2006 at 06:36
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Optics capable to this range will require a very solid mount almost beyond a standard tripod. There can be no breeze and no rising heatwaves due to the magnification. The magnification is going to be more like 100x or 150x if not more at this range. Magnification itself plays second fiddle though to resolving power (visible separation between two objects out at a distance from you) which is obtained by the diameter of the main objective lens(aperture). You can get up to about 60X of usable magnification (depending on quality of optics) out of every inch of aperture. So a 3.15"refractor (80mm) used with proper eyepiece can get you close to 200x of usable magnification. If too much magnification is applied in a system you get diminished light coming through and you will have reached the limits of the objectives light gathering power and its resolving power.

It is a gimmick when we see scopes sold with 450x magnifications or when seller places a magnification amount to an objective lens itself ( like 60x objective) since magnification is purely only a function of dividing eyepiece focal length into objective focal length. The short eyepiece focal length in a simple eyepiece translates into small eye relief while looking through a small length type spotting scope. (example: 400mm objective\5mm eyepiece=80x). To overcome this problem special eyepiece systems that cost real money are designed using multiple lens to achieve the relief. You can also add in another lens system between the objective and eyepiece called a Barlow lens to double or even triple your magnification to get away from using short focal length eyepieces. But these still cost money.

But anyways... can't see a 60mm scope as cutting it and an 80mm scope outfitted right may even be troublesome. With low grade/low magnification(20mm) eyepiece they start about $400 range in the astronomy market or way more in the hunter/outfitter market due to durable weather proofing. Different individual sized eyepieces with long eye relief like Vixen lanthanum eyepieces run about $130 each but are made for the astro scopes.

some brands of interest: Televue, Meade, Vixen, and good old Orien

...hope this helps,God Bless



IN ADDITION: Noticed the Pentax 100mm being mentioned in another thread and so I will add a bit more info here concerning and supporting that choice in regard to resolving things at long distance-...


This may surprise some folks but single Earth based scopes, even very large 5 meter observatory scopes for astronomy, are subject to worldy limits of best resolution no greater than about that 100mm aperture scope...

After objectives reach about 100mm in diameter the theoretical gains in resolution (separation) give way to the natural problem of seeing through Earth's atmosphere. Even the most seemingly quietest air has movement causing light diffraction which is detrimental to any and all qualities of optics available. The worldly scope resolution limit translates to about 1 sec.of arc (or a penny at 4km) as compared to the naked human eye being able to do 1 min.of arc. (or a 1 inch quarter at 100yards / or 1mm from 3.5m) . Make note of how that size of arc difference can lead to interpretation of a 60x objective or 60 power that confuses resolution with magnification...

The reason why astronomers have big aperture objectives is to collect more dim light from unseen places. Some call them big light buckets actually....Only reason we (as hunters and shooters) may need a bigger spotting scope is going be to see in really dim light.



Edited by astro
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2013 at 22:07
medic52 View Drop Down
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Don't remember the name but they do make a camera system for under 500
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/20/2013 at 12:51
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Think I'd try the camera idea.  I have a better than pretty decent 20-60x,80 mm scope and finding bullet holes much past 500 yards is a challenge.

Set it up and do a review of the system you develop.

The magnification does not cause the heat waves, temperature differential does.  Magnification just magnifies the heat waves.  The higher the magnification, the more troublesome the mirage gets.  That alone can cancel out spotting scopes on some days.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:05
MC Escher View Drop Down
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I've never tried this, but I find myself wondering...

Would a cheap astronomical scope work for this?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2013 at 01:33
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Originally posted by MC Escher MC Escher wrote:

I've never tried this, but I find myself wondering...

Would a cheap astronomical scope work for this?
NO! The effects of sunlight and heat variations limit visibility not the optic or magnification.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2013 at 11:36
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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You won't be seeing bullet holes at 1000 yards unless you go to something like a 100mm team scope tandem pair, and then it's an iffy thing.
Spotters at distance have a realistic task and that is to assess conditions to allow more precise shot placement.  Secondary usage for field apps is target ID, following shot trace, and for comp type apps, reading score and bullet placement via target spotter on a formal target.
Most days a decent pair of 10X50mm binocs will serve quite well for 90% of folks.
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