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Terrible tragedy today

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2007 at 13:00
RifleDude View Drop Down
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tec h_shooting

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2007 at 13:29
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From the Roanoke Times

Gun bill gets shot down by panel
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito
381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.
_________________________
 
 
Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
Think Mr. Hincker's phones are ringing off the hook??????
 


Edited by Dale Clifford
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2007 at 15:37
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

 

Thanks for posting Ted, but your link wouldn't work for me, so I posted this one.

 

Terrible day indeed.

Prayers sent for all family and friends of the victims.

 

Excellent point, Dale. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2007 at 16:15
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Thanks for posting Ted, but your link wouldn't work for me, so I posted this one.



Thanks.  I'm currently at a 'puter that won't hyperlink at this site for some reason.

A very tragic day.  As Dale pointed out, unfortunately politicians will use a tragedy like this to restrict our liberties.  It's sad that we should even have to discuss the two issues together, instead of just mourn and pray for the families.

Edited by RifleDude
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2007 at 17:38
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but aren't guns against university policy 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2007 at 18:07
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The more fundamental legal issue is when the educational facility is not private. ie. can a local entity like a college administration surpass state an local laws especially when the state has a CWW process in place that has been passed by a state legislation (funded by state tax money)--turf wars-- in the case of the Va incident I see some big time law suits coming down.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2007 at 19:03
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Until someone has grounds to bring a case to court, then they can get away with this stuff.  Universities are in a strange quasi legal area as to if they are a true branch of the state (commonwealth) government. Some rules apply, some don't until a court rules otherwise.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 00:43
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Isnt it ironic that "death" seems to be the only way to bring about change..??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 09:29
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More guns on a campus will increase the number of such shootings, not decrease them. True, had some of the victims at Virginia Tech been able to defend themselves with handguns, there may have been 12 victims instead of 33, but on the long run there will be more shootings.

 

I teach college. What do want me to do? Keep a .44 on my belt when i give failing grades to some students? Pull the gun out when someone behaves nervously for whatever reason, such as not being reccomended for a scholarship? Keep a shotgun next to my desk?

 

Guns are not a solution to a problem in this case. They are the symptom of a problem. That problem may be mental insanity occasionally, but mostly how we educate our yougsters and what kind of values children learn from their parents. I've never heard of Swiss or Finnish students shooting their way through a school.       



Edited by anweis
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 10:14
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I couldn't agree more with anweis--gun education should occur in every household. Every 18 year should have at least a 8 sec. El Presidente given their age, co-ordination and reflex patterns. 44 mag a bit large for carry consider a 9mm. Why is your situation any different than a 7-11 clerk with no means of protection? The reasons why my ancestors left Europe was to get away from the bullsh*t that went on in Europe, not to transport here.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 11:02
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

The reasons why my ancestors left Europe was to get away from the bullsh*t that went on in Europe, not to transport here.

 

I didn't work. We have problems.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 11:10
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Originally posted by anweis anweis wrote:

More guns on a campus will increase the number of such shootings, not decrease them.

I don't agree with this.  The proliferation of legal concealed carry throughout the nation has not resulted in an increase in gun violence.  In fact, the exact opposite is true - gun violence in right-to-carry jurisdictions is down significantly.

 

Originally posted by anweis anweis wrote:

Guns are not a solution to a problem in this case. They are the symptom of a problem. That problem may be mental insanity occasionally, but mostly how we educate our yougsters and what kind of values children learn from their parents.       

 

This I agree with - though with the qualifier that guns are also not the problem.  (I don't think that is what you meant to say but, I just wanted to emphasize the point.)  What we are seeing is a general degredation of society brought on by a lot of different issues including:

  • parents relegating their responsibilities to teach and rear their children to institutions like daycare and public school and taking no active part in it themselves - usually so that both parents can pursue personal career plans and/or to be able to afford the purchase of an endless supply of luxury/entertainment items. 
  • the active removal of all mention, respect, honor, and obedience to the God-given laws and principles that inspired the foundation of our nation.  The removal of a religious base to society means that there is no moral-center for direction, guidance, and control.
  • The removal of shame from any and all activities in which a person might choose to participate, no matter how perverse or unnatural. Instead all such choices must be "respected" because the individual chose them as being "right for me."
  • the ridiculous attitude of our society that dictates that life, liberty and happiness are an entitlement to be demanded rather than a pursuit to be worked at and followed as was intended by our forefathers. 
  • the unwillingness of our courts to impose penalties that are equal to the gravity of the crime that has been commited.
  • the continued over-glorification of violence (whether in television, movies, video games, music, so-called "ultimate fighting" contests, etc.) as an acceptable means of problem solving.
  • etc., etc., etc.

 



Edited by lucznik
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 11:21
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I didn't work. We have problems

 

God--- ain't it a great country!!!

 

recalling a statistic that went something like-- "you are 3 times more likely to be shot as a school teacher than a police officer".

 

hey -- I like ultimate fighting -- I'm still waiting for Royce Gracie's come back.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 11:25
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

I couldn't agree more with anweis--gun education should occur in every household. 

True: All children should be taught proper respect for firearms and how to properly handle one - to the extent that the gun gets safely into the hands of a responsible adult. 

 

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Every 18 year should have at least a 8 sec. El Presidente given their age, co-ordination and reflex patterns.

False:  It is not a crime, nor a moral failure for people to choose not to own or use firearms.  Such people should not be required to learn firearms-based tactical skills any more than my family should be required to learn/accept the "appropriatness" of  "Billy's got two daddies" etc. 

 

To wit; Although I LOVE guns and take any opportunity I can to handle, shoot, and learn about almost any gun I can, I do NOT enjoy tactical drills and am often put off by the fascination with SWAT-type gear and paranoia-based "self defense" instruction.  I have never shot an El Presidente drill and likely could not do one in 8 seconds.  I will not be putting this on my To-Do list either. Unless my children eventually develop and pursue a tactical-stuff fascination of their own, they also will likely never participate in any such drills as I certainly won't be teaching them any.

 

 

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

The reasons why my ancestors left Europe was to get away from the bullsh*t that went on in Europe, not to transport here.

 

AMEN!!!! 

 

Having had the opportunity to live in Europe I promise you I have NO DESIRE to live under their version of "civilized society." 

 

Besides which, do we need to continue to remind Europe that it is only by the spilling of  American blood and the abilities of American gun-toating youth that they managed to survive BOTH world wars of the last century - which THEY THEMSELVES caused!!! 

 

Apparently we do.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 11:35
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Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

[QUOTE=anweis]

More guns on a campus will increase the number of such shootings, not decrease them.

I don't agree with this.  The proliferation of legal concealed carry throughout the nation has not resulted in an increase in gun violence.  In fact, the exact opposite is true - gun violence in right-to-carry jurisdictions is down significantly.

 

[/QUOTE=anweis]

 

lucznick, the people doing these shootings do not pose to reason "i'm not going there to do this or that with a gun 'cuz everyone else has a gun and i will get shot". They just do it in rage, regardless. Your statement is true for car hijackings, robberies, and such. Even with robberies, possesion of guns is cure for our fears, not for our problems: uneducated, poor, undervalued and antisocial people committing crimes.

 

Yes, the fact that people have firearms is not the problem. I agree with your opinions. Our society has problems in regard to how we educate children, how we value others, and in regard to what we view as admissible and what is not. The "i got a gun, it will solve everything" and the "everyone else is wrong for my problems, therefore, they should die" attitudes are to blamed as well. We need more parenting, not fewer guns.



Edited by anweis
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 12:10
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False:  It is not a crime, nor a moral failure for people to choose not to own or use firearms.  Such people should not be required to learn firearms-based tactical skills any more than my family should be required to learn/accept the "appropriatness" of  "Billy's got two daddies" etc

 

Manual of arms knowledge is just that-- the degree of which-- is a free choice. Not wanting to cloud the issue with other agenda, but people who have given up their "choice" of self defence or delegated to others in a paid police force not only share the same fate but expect others to join them.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 17:15
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The simple facts are thus:

1.  A person inclined to mass murder in the first place will not be deterred by rules against carrying guns on campuses.

2.  Just as in the Luby's cafeteria massacre in Texas or the Columbine shootings, if someone on the scene had been armed, there's a good chance fewer people would have lost their lives.  At least there's a chance; one thing is certain, unarmed citizens can do almost nothing to deter armed criminals.

3.  States who passed concealed carry laws have seen a reduction in violent crimes as a result, which doesn't support the premise that allowing concealed carry weapons on a school campus would increase the number of shootings.

4.  The police cannot protect you from unpredictable violence.  They can only respond to what has already happened.  You can choose to either be a helpless victim, or take control of your own self protection.

 

Very well articulated points, lucznik!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 19:40
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Rifledude, very well spoken...But who am I to say..Stated earlier in this thread about spilled blood, we have spilled more blood on our own soil from our own quest for free rights than any other country in history.(amungst ourselves).Needless to say the blood we have spilled fighting for anothers right for freedom.. "DICIPLINE", is what we lack in this country today.."RESPECT" is an unknown factor in most of our children today..We are debating amungst our selves on "how we should protect our selves", and from what..!! We have subjected our selves to these tragadies, have we become weak, disrespected and allowed this to mature in our own country..The very root of our country was spawned by the gun, what has happened..????

    Man I hope I said this correctly,   30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 19:48
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Also, why is it that every time a young person has a problem with his or hers friend , they have to venture out and shoot up the place..?? My ol,man taught me to go out and get another one..!!Maturity, discipline, and respect, it dont give you the right to take it out on the world..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 21:24
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i am a firm believer in right to carry, if even 50% of the population was properly trained to carry and effectively use a handgun, i think a lot of people who may want to commit a crime would give it a second thought if they knew a lot of armed citizens would be near by, now of course this will not stop those crazy's that walk into schools and shoot the sh*t out of it, but i would feel more safe knowing that people are armed and trained. the things that really are crazy, are that when i was in high school which wasnt to long ago less than 10 years i was in a very small school in southwestern wyoming, i cant promise you that at any point in time during the school year there was at least 10-20 people who had a hunting rifle, shotgun,handgun, 22 rimfire, or bow in there vehicle, i felt very safe knowing that if something went wrong we would be able to cut it off quickly, the year after i graduated you couldnt have a gun within 1000 ft of a school, sad a lot of kids would take there deer/elk rifle with them in there truck and then when school was over they would head to the mountains for an evening hunt, not anymore.and now we have people who really really love guns and then we have people who think nobody but cops and military personel should have a gun, i dont think anyone should be forced to own a gun but at the same time why should they force law abiding citizens to give there's up, because a hand full of crazy bastards have a screw loose and cant think of anything better to do, so they use a gun, i wish they would use something that would be impossible to outlaw, why cant they use a gallon milk jug or something stupid. i feel sorry for these people but guns still dont kill people, people kill people with guns. so instead of looking at the real problem aka people they would rather blame a tool which has no brain of its own and also no feelings or means to say no cause its easy to do, not fair to the people who take pride in saftey and sanity and sportsmanship. ah dammit im all sorts of bent out of shape on gun control it pisses me off to no end i lose sleep at night thinking about the day when the feds show up and say hand em over sir!! i feel a communistic/monarchy type govt taking control and history will repeat itself again, i hope i am dead and gone before then, otherwise i may have to fight to the death and then  they can peel my guns from my cold dead hands.

Edited by pyro6999
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2007 at 22:39
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Ya, can lead them to water, but you can't make them drink.  Colleges live in such an imaginary world.  They did try and get the the little freak some help. I live in a college town and the young people are in such an artificial "funk" about themselves and the world, it is its own sort of cult religion. So many people just need to grow up, rather than be pampered (but why do that when there is grad school?).

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2007 at 17:59
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Well, its starting...For those of you not familiar with House Bill 1417 in the state of Florida, it was voted down today by 10 to 4... Florida is a "gun state", or was...The bill would allow men and women to have a weapon locked in there vehicle while in or on the parking lot of "business owners" ( walmart, publix etc.) wether being an employee or not.. Now if you are discovered with your weapon on premisess you are fired or locked-up or we will just have to wait and see..!!!!!!!!MY POINT is, due to the recent tragidy at Virginia Tech, certain Republicans feeling the pressure of polotics turned traitor, and swung there votes...

   Man is Marion Hammer disgusted..(pres.unified sportsman of Florida)
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