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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 08:33
jackG View Drop Down
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First off, I'm a novice in spades.  This fall I hunted with a barrowed rifle topped with a L VX-lll 3-9 compact.  The rifle was already sighted in.  I simply verified I could put a round on a target where I pointed from 100 yards.  It shot an inch or two high at that range for hunting purposes.  It was a 7mm-08.  I filled three tags with three shots, two deer and a pronghorn.  I was fortunate to get standing broadside shots on all three, (I swear they posed for me), at ranges up to 230 yards or so, through and through the boiler room in all cases.  It seemed pretty instinctive.  I hunted small game a lot as a kid ( a long time ago), but the principles are the same. 

 

Subsequently I celebrated by purchasing a Tikka T3 Lt in 270 WSM and based on input from this site topped it with a Sightron Sll 3-9X42.  To my eye, the glass is brighter and clearer than the Leupold's I used.  Subjective, I imagine.  I'm trying to get the Tikka sighted in and to find the ammo it likes.  I'm finding that shooting at that little circle from 100 yards is a far more difficult proposition than taking out the heart and lungs of a mule deer at 170 yards. It has not been easy.  It seems that the magnification is inadequate to get that kind of precision at that range on that tiny an object.  I can see the value of much higher magnification for target shooting.  My thinking is, if I can train myself to hit what I want at a 100 yards and find the ammo that groups well, I can move to the 200 yard range and keep things pretty tight there.   There is nothing profound here, but I simply wanted to make the comment, that to my eye, there is vast difference between banging a 10" circle in the middle of a deer at 230 yards, and a 2" circle printed on a piece of paper at 100.  I'll keep practicing.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 10:59
tahqua View Drop Down
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There are better targets for sighting in scoped rifles. If you are looking for repeatability:

http://www.remington.com/library/downloads/paper_targets.asp

Try targets 1 or 2, line up your crosshairs with those on the paper.

Targets with a round bulls eye like the NRA B-8 are not as adequate for scoped rifle sighting.



Edited by tahqua
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/10/2007 at 15:14
jackG View Drop Down
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Tahqua - thanks for taking the time to pass that along.  I printed a bunch of the round graduated targets and I am off to the range.

 

jack

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2007 at 15:13
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I use to do 1 moa and better when target shooting using aperture sights, so it's a matter of practice as well as matching targets to sights. On the 'bolt guns' people typically used aperture front and rear, which allows a nice image for centering a bullseye, while service rifles were aperture rear and post front. With a scope you'd want try a small, high contrast target, or shoot a 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, or 9:00 position on the bull. 

 

Some of the more memorable shooting I recall with people using iron sights:

 

When working up loads for an M1 Garand that I use to own a friend that shot much, much better than I did asked how it was shooting. I said ok, he asked to try it out, popped in a clip of 8 rds, and from a standing position proceeded to do about a 2in group in a timed / slow rapid fire sequence at100 yds.

 

After finishing shooting you pull targets for the other half of the shooters. At the 300 yard rapid fire, which is from a prone position, a gentleman a couple of targets over had to shoot three stings before his group opened up enough to count ten holes.    

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2007 at 16:47
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I printed out some targets from the recommended site.  I went out today and got my sights dialed right in.  I'm using a 3-9X scope, and sighting for open  country shooting, 2" high at 100 yards. 

 

It did reveal one thing I'm dismayed to report.  I've picked up a flinch.  When I behave myself the rifle is wonderfully accurate for a factory job.  The groups ranged from 3/8-3/4", until I would jump.  The third round out of every other set would be 1 and 1/2 to 2" off in the best of times, and up to 3" in the extreme.  I know where I got it, now I have to fix it. 

 

It seemed to shoot to the same point of aim with both 130 gr Fed Power Shok and Rem Core-Lokt, both soft point bullets.  Okay, I know what the rifle does, not the rest is up to me.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/11/2007 at 22:05
tahqua View Drop Down
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Thanks for reporting back on the range time, jackG. That is a light gun with a large case. Good luck with that flinch. With recoil, I figure it's coming, it's after the squeeze and that's when I say ouch. The bullet is long gone. It works with my .375 H&H from the bench. Saying ouch ten times is enough, though. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2007 at 07:37
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jackG, you may want to try the PAST recoil shield for your bench shooting. We use one when sighting my son's 375 RUM and 450 Marlin - it keeps the recoil at a tolerable level.  Even with it don't go past about a box of shells per session.  Off hand with the PAST is even better once the rifle is dialled in.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2007 at 08:11
tahqua View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

  Off hand with the PAST is even better once the rifle is dialled in.

And good practice for field conditions too. Everyone should practice off hand @ 100yards.



Edited by tahqua
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2007 at 17:07
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A brief history.  I had big-time shoulder surgery about 11 mo ago.  While it's techincally healed and I work out and all that, I made a mistake. At break in time for the new rifle I stoked up on 150 grain hotties to do the deed.  Even with a Limb Saver recoil pad this little flame thrower pounded right on some bone screws and tendon repairs.  I held up for about 20 rounds, and then decided I'd had enough.  The shoulder went from a dirty brown and black berry purple to bright yellow in a matter of days. 

 

The first thing I did when I got home was look for some additional protection.  And I found the PAST shoulder shields on line.  I went down to the local outdoor store and bought the thickest, super mag version they had.  After getting all better, I went back out to the range.  The PAST works great.  However, the damage was done and despite being fairly disciplined and concentrating as hard as I could, I've got the yips.  I can do two or three shots while managing the flinch (not curing it or knocking it off, but kind of compensating) and get 3/8" groups.  It's actually kind of liberating.  I coudn't be sure it wasn't the rifle that was dishing out the aberrant shots.  Now I know it's me. And I can fix that with a little work.  The recommended targets allowed me to prove I was the culprit.  The PAST shields are everything they're cracked up to be. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2007 at 18:09
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Pretty hard to kick the flinch once you have been bitten, especially with your bad shoulder.  Might be an idea to put a lot of shots downrange with a real light kicker to get the control back & then move up to your WSM when you feel smooth again.  I would use the PAST even on the light rifle so it feels more natural when you move back to the 270.

 

Assume you have been using good ear protection as well?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2007 at 18:42
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Dogger - yes I've been using ear protection.  However, I'm going to ramp that up as well.  I may need an assistant to kick the flinch.  My brother got rid of his by having someone else "load" the rifle.  Sometime with a round chambered and sometimes not.  He was handed the rifle, a dime was balanced on the barrel.  He'd pull the trigger.  It sounds draconian but it worked.  It has been suggested to me that the same technique can be used dry firing with a dime on the barrel, without having someone else load it.  That sounds like establishing a different muscle memory.  In addition, once the trigger is pulled, count to two.  I've not tried it yet,  I did notice that prior to the flinch there is a feeling of, almost, impatience and tensing up.  "Get it over with."  The staying in and counting can work like a follow through.  Your suggestion of putting out some rounds with a lighter cartridge is a good idea as well. 

 

I understand that it is considered easier to get a flinch than to get rid of one.  But, I'll work at it conscientously until it's behind me.  Thanks for the input. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2007 at 22:19
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If you can develop lighter loads. A lighter load might mean a 50 yd or so difference in delivered energy to target, and if you're really that worried you should get a rifle that delivers an even bigger bullet at higher velocity, and that has even more recoil.

 

A good shooting jacket helps too, maybe a heavier barrel if you're really attached to the rifle.   

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2007 at 21:16
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Range update - This may be of interest.  As noted above I got a case of the yips.  I felt there were two drivers in that process.  One, the recoil, was obvious.  I got some extra padding and that didn't seem to make much difference.  I could feel a tensing of muscles and almost an impatience, to hurry the shot and get it over with.  And for anyone who has experienced it, even attempts at zen like concentration, don't make much difference.

 

Last weekend I was shooting next a guy and his kids.  They were splitting time between a very short barrelled, semi auto 270, and a 7mm mag.  I found myself wincing when they cut loose, especially from the 270.  My goodness that sucker was loud!  I'd been using electronic hearing protection and even though it interrupted the really loud stuff, a lot was still bypassing the circuitry.  I began to suspect that may have been part of the problem. If their noise was making me squirm and flinch, what was my own doing?  I got a pair of 29 NRR muffs and in addition used some foam inserts.  With all that stuff on it was as if I'd lost my hearing.  Impressive reduction.

 

Within a couple of shots all the tensing and impatience disappeared.  I could then focus on my mechanics.  The sight picture didn't go away at the shot, despite brisk recoil.  I could see stuff flying off the target backing as the bullet struck, which meant my eyes were staying open and focused.  The groups tightened up and while certainly not near what the rifle is capable of, it's getting better.  Even though I"m not shooint way out there, only 100 yards, I shot one 3 shot group of 3/8", one 1/2", one 4 shot group of 7/8", there were a couple of 1.5 to 2" groups, and one a real klinker.  I'm confident that one was due to the ammo.  The rifle is not fond of Rem Core-Lokt - no more of that.  I'm pleased.  The rifle works. The scope works.  And I'm on my way to doing my part.  It turned out to be, in large part, the noise.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2007 at 22:37
tahqua View Drop Down
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That is real good to hear and thanks for following up on OT.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2007 at 07:10
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Glad to hear you got it sorted out.  Muzzle blast is a big contributor to perceived recoil, some of our rifles can be downright painful on the bench.

 

You're groups sound excellent, looks like you're good to go. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/04/2007 at 20:38
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The on-going saga of sighting in this rilfle.  Today I went to the 200 yard range.  I was unsure at to how well I could shoot it at that distance.  I put up 4 targets printed off the net.  I arranged them in a square at the backstop corners.  The target is a graduated circle, showing the 1" center in red with 1/2" and 1" marks on the vertical and horizontal bars.  I started on the upper left target.  Now here is something I don't understand at all.  I had been working on getting the thing to shoot at about 2 and 1/2" high at 100 yards.  That's where I left it at the end of the last session.  The ballistic charts I had seen suggested that it would be perhaps around 3" at the top of the parabola (not a perfect one of course) and back down to around 1 and 1/2" at say 200, and then perhaps 5" low at 300.   Well, the first round, since that target was even with the upper edge of the backstop, was off the paper!  Talk about surprised.  I peeked through the spotting scope after the shot to find an unmarked target.  I still don't get how I could be 2 and 1/2" high at 100 and about 5" high at 200.  Unless it was a case of just bad shooting.  That could very well be.

 

I adjusted it down and within 2 shots had it about 2" high.  Whatever  trajectory I had envisioned was clearly not a real representation. The next thing was, my initial djustments were way too radical.  It took a moment to figure out that an adjustment was used to at 100 yards, will have twice that effect at 200 yards.  A day of discovery.  I guess I knew that, but not as a practical matter. 

 

The Sightron II performs perfectly.  It's bright, clear, and has plenty of eye relief.  It seems to have one less than perfect feature, and perhaps in this regard it's not much different than other 3-9X42 scopes.  It has a duplex reticle. Thick lines to the outside, fine ones in the center where the object of interest is.  The center cross hairs seem a bit thick for than target at 200 yards.  Thinking about it though, a deer or pronghorn is a much chunkier objectg for those cross hairs than a 1/8" thick black line. 

 

Here is another interesting event.  I got it shooting about 1 and 1/2" high at 200 with the windage pretty well vertical using Fed Power Shock 130 gr.   I then shot 3 rounds of Fed 140 gr accubond and it was about 1/4" below the bull.  That's almost 2" lower.  I guess every type of ammunition shoots to its won point of aim. 

 

At 200 yards, the groups ranged from 3" down to 1.25.   I realized that's a pretty sloppy variation.   What is one to do, hope that the time one cranks one off at a pronghorn he's getting one of the precise shots?  I averaged the groups as any good mathematician is wont do, and got 2".  While it gives some indication of how it's going overall, it's totally bogus for practical shooting.  You hit things or you don't.  The pattern seemed to be, two would be pretty close, less than an inch and in some cases, almost touching, and the third would be off somewhere sort of on its own.  Through the spotting scope the groups looked terrible.  When I hiked down to the targets to collect them, considering the kill zone for deer sized targets, the groups seemed a lot tighter.  They're not great but coming along.  I need a lot of practice before next fall.  I'm confident however that I can get things tightened up, find the ammuntion that the gun prefers, and polish my own mechanics, which is where the current slop rests, I think. 

 

For anyone wondering about the Sightron II.  The only thing I've got to compare it to is a L VX-lll compact. And it, to my eye, is clearer than the Leupold.  I wouldn't hesitate to get another and I'm really curious about the reported, soon-to-appear, Big Country.  I really feel confident with this scope. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2007 at 19:20
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Have not hunted pronghorn so not sure what kind of latitude you have for a clean kill zone but 3" at 200 yds for whitetail is pretty good.  Sounds like you're shooting 3 shot strings where maybe the last shot has opened a bit up due to the barrel heating up?

Had a look at the Federal ballistics tables for 130-140 grain ammo and they indicate the following for a 200 yd zero.  These rounds look virtually interchangable out to 300 yards.

130 grain Barnes (use this as an example - the othe 130's are very close)
100 yd: +1.1
200 yd:  0
300 yd:  -5.5

140 grain Accubond
100 yd: +1.2
200 yd:   0
300 yd:  -5.6

- not sure how you  got that group 5" high at 200, but sounds like you have it pulled back in now.  If you're ok with how the rifle is shooting now I'd leave it alone and practice some more from a good solid rest and let your barrel cool a bit between shots.  You could clean it with a bore snake between strings if you want to get real picky to see if things will tighen up.

Good luck.
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