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Talked with 2 African PHs about lion hunting

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2012 at 15:34
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A few days ago. Thought I'd come here and pass this along and get your opinions.
 
I'm seriously considering doing an african lion hunt in 2013 or 14 with my dad and a few business friends. We've researched all over the place, through Cabelas ect ect. And found some good deals on "problem cats".
 
We've spoken with about 4 or 5 credible PHs. I was speaking with 2 of them recently this week. They both told me the reason the 375 is a minumum requirement for lion in many parts of africa is because "too many wealthy Americans and Europeans come to africa that can't shoot worth a sh*t under pressure."
 
They explained to me that if a hunter is good with his rifle a 300 win mag with 200 grain bullets, 300 wby, 300 RUM, 325 wsm, 340 wby and 338 was certainly enough gun to kill any lion. They both mentioned to me that the 325 wsm & 338 win mag would be ideal to shoot a lion from 50-100 yards over bait. Both calibers with a shot placed right behind the shoulder would kill him just as fast as one of the huge bores.
 
What do you guys think? Anybody here been to Africa or shot a grizzly or one of the large browns with a 325 or 338? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2012 at 17:36
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Originally posted by Obi Wan Kenobi Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

A few days ago. Thought I'd come here and pass this along and get your opinions.
 
I'm seriously considering doing an african lion hunt in 2013 or 14 with my dad and a few business friends. We've researched all over the place, through Cabelas ect ect. And found some good deals on "problem cats".
 
We've spoken with about 4 or 5 credible PHs. I was speaking with 2 of them recently this week. They both told me the reason the 375 is a minumum requirement for lion in many parts of africa is because "too many wealthy Americans and Europeans come to africa that can't shoot worth a sh*t under pressure."
 
They explained to me that if a hunter is good with his rifle a 300 win mag with 200 grain bullets, 300 wby, 300 RUM, 325 wsm, 340 wby and 338 was certainly enough gun to kill any lion. They both mentioned to me that the 325 wsm & 338 win mag would be ideal to shoot a lion from 50-100 yards over bait. Both calibers with a shot placed right behind the shoulder would kill him just as fast as one of the huge bores.
 
What do you guys think? Anybody here been to Africa or shot a grizzly or one of the large browns with a 325 or 338? 

 This is very true.
IMO those you listed all should work fine, the larger one's .338 and .340 would be great for African but, almost to the point of over kill for anything here in North America. Your whole list would be plenty for any North American game.
I know several people that have developed a "flinch" from shooting high recoil cartridges and to this day they have not been able rid of. Just never know who is susceptible or not to developing a "flinch".  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2012 at 17:55
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  I have hunted in three different African countries, but the only DG on the menu for me was Cape Buffalo.  I have never hunted South Africa but I understand that is where the most "affordable" lion hunts are conducted.  In almost all African countries the .375 H&H is the legal minimum for lions, although some allow usage of the 9.3mm.  The laws may be different in South Africa, as lions on the fenced ranches are stocked and the property of the landowner.
 
  What country is your destination?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2012 at 19:22
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Originally posted by 3 Tuns 3 Tuns wrote:

  I have hunted in three different African countries, but the only DG on the menu for me was Cape Buffalo.  I have never hunted South Africa but I understand that is where the most "affordable" lion hunts are conducted.  In almost all African countries the .375 H&H is the legal minimum for lions, although some allow usage of the 9.3mm.  The laws may be different in South Africa, as lions on the fenced ranches are stocked and the property of the landowner.
 
  What country is your destination?
 
 
South Africa, the PH told me according to how one shoots his/her weapon at the range you could use it on the hunt wink wink. Provided it was the calibers I mentioned with the right 200 grain premium bullets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2012 at 19:25
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Originally posted by rustic rustic wrote:

Originally posted by Obi Wan Kenobi Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

A few days ago. Thought I'd come here and pass this along and get your opinions.
 
I'm seriously considering doing an african lion hunt in 2013 or 14 with my dad and a few business friends. We've researched all over the place, through Cabelas ect ect. And found some good deals on "problem cats".
 
We've spoken with about 4 or 5 credible PHs. I was speaking with 2 of them recently this week. They both told me the reason the 375 is a minumum requirement for lion in many parts of africa is because "too many wealthy Americans and Europeans come to africa that can't shoot worth a sh*t under pressure."
 
They explained to me that if a hunter is good with his rifle a 300 win mag with 200 grain bullets, 300 wby, 300 RUM, 325 wsm, 340 wby and 338 was certainly enough gun to kill any lion. They both mentioned to me that the 325 wsm & 338 win mag would be ideal to shoot a lion from 50-100 yards over bait. Both calibers with a shot placed right behind the shoulder would kill him just as fast as one of the huge bores.
 
What do you guys think? Anybody here been to Africa or shot a grizzly or one of the large browns with a 325 or 338? 

 This is very true.
IMO those you listed all should work fine, the larger one's .338 and .340 would be great for African but, almost to the point of over kill for anything here in North America. Your whole list would be plenty for any North American game.
I know several people that have developed a "flinch" from shooting high recoil cartridges and to this day they have not been able rid of. Just never know who is susceptible or not to developing a "flinch".  
 
 
Thats the problem. I love shooting but I do hate recoil. I have some 300s and my new 300wsm at 7.5 lbs feels like a 30.06 with no problem. I'm thinking of buying a 325 because I've shot some 338s and ouch!!!!! I'm not really crazy about muzzle brakes, was thinking of the Benelli R1 in 338 but I really wouldn't feel confident using a semi auto even if it was a Benelli.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2012 at 19:32
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375H&H is a great cartridge easily one of my favorites. The 338 Win Mag is an Alaska favorite. I have a friend who has a Lioness full body mounted in his den she came into camp at night hunting the hunters so I strongly suggest you use a scope with illumination like a Trijicon or Aimpoint.  I have a Marlin 45-70 lever action with an Aimpont Comp M4s on a scout rail that would be a fine choice for that also. African hunting was traditionally done with double rifles and there is a reason why - the second shot is ready to go right now.  The larger and more dangerous the animal is the larger I want the caliber to be and 416 Rigby or 458 Lott would be high on my list if I had them.  Since I  have a 375 H&H Encore single shot I might take both that and the 45-70 with the  aimpoint 9000L on it and put my Trijicon Accupoint on the 375H&H.  I really might just custom order in a new 416 Rigby barrel from Bullberry for my Encore.
http://www.bullberry.com/encore.html Im still really liking the idea of an Aimpoint as they can be mounted with infinate eye relief and what the dot is on the bullet hits.  Unfortunately most .375 H&H guns  and larger are spendy so I might consider a Tikka in 338 Win Mag which should be reliable and  sub moa accurate.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2012 at 21:09
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 Why not consider one of these in 9.3x62?  In fact I'm surprised one of the PH's didn't suggest it. If you can shoot a 7.5lb .300 you can handle this with no problem.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 13:20
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Originally posted by Obi Wan Kenobi Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

Originally posted by 3 Tuns 3 Tuns wrote:

  I have hunted in three different African countries, but the only DG on the menu for me was Cape Buffalo.  I have never hunted South Africa but I understand that is where the most "affordable" lion hunts are conducted.  In almost all African countries the .375 H&H is the legal minimum for lions, although some allow usage of the 9.3mm.  The laws may be different in South Africa, as lions on the fenced ranches are stocked and the property of the landowner.
 
  What country is your destination?
 
 
South Africa, the PH told me according to how one shoots his/her weapon at the range you could use it on the hunt wink wink. Provided it was the calibers I mentioned with the right 200 grain premium bullets.
 
  I don't doubt that a smaller rifle would kill a stocked lion cleanly over bait, but I would never hunt with an outfit that would knowingly break the law.  How could they be trusted?  If there are any problems you might find that you can not export your trophy, etc.
 
  You could always use recoil reduction tricks like using a heavy rifle (like a CZ) with a muzzle brake and weight or mercury in the stock to bring the kick under control.  I don't care for muzzle brakes, but they are effective.
 
  South Africa lion hunts have been very controversial.  They draw the attention of many antihunting groups that have found an ear in the government of SA (they are often labeled as "canned" hunts).  There are people out there who would love to make trouble for you.
 
  Best of luck with your hunt.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 13:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 14:25
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A lion "at range" is not the problem for the smaller cartridges...It is when the lion is hunting you where I have a problem with something less than a 375! I haven't been to Africa, but from the videos posted...I want something BIG!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 14:36
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in that first video one of the guys falls like he got shot... he's in the background... anybody see that?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 14:54
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I saw it, Tip
 
Pretty scary.  I've seen lions close up eating an antelope from the comfort of a pick-up truck with the windows up tight. They are pretty big and nasty.  A double rifle for me, thank you. 
 
They don't get turned so easy in a charge with less than a 375.  They just keep coming, but of course, they are not supposed to be impossible to turn like a cape buffalo is.  With a buffalo you just have to kill him before he arrives. No missing.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 15:10
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Wow those videos really make you think.
 
What we'll probably do is just use the PH's rifles. I hear getting guns into africa is a pain any ways.
 
I was settling on a 325 because I've been told they are one of the best all around rounds for anything in Alaska.
 
That second video was just down right scarey!!!!!Shocked
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 15:23
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Look what I found while looking around the Internet for double rifles.......
 
 
 
very interesting
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Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

in that first video one of the guys falls like he got shot... he's in the background... anybody see that?
Nah, in the full video on YouTube, they're all high- fivin' at the end. I think he just slipped in something real slippery- like runnin' down his leg.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 19:53
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The day hunt is scarey enough but what concerns me is the night when its hunting you.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 19:58
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The other possible would be a 375 Ruger I doubt I would go with less than a 375 and I would never trust someone elses rifle without spending some time with it on the range first.
Go rent the movie : The Ghost and the Darkness(1996) to better understand.
Dont think any of the bolt guns had time to reload during the charge so when its closing distance wait until its about 50 yds and put the bullet right in his head.
I know I would want illumination.   And if its not coming straight at you that really makes it tough to hit as you would have to lead it a little and follow through.
Aimpoint 9000L 30mm Red Dot Sight 2 MOA Dot Aimpoint 9000L 30mm Red Dot Sight
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Trijicon 1.25-4x24 Accu-Point Rifle Scope Red Triangle Trijicon 1.25-4x24 Accu-Point Rifle Scope
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Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - February/05/2012 at 20:53
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2012 at 20:42
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I agree with Wes completely, I'd want a rifle I'm extremely familiar with.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2012 at 00:06
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I must admit that I have no experience hunting in Africa.
I did have a chance to talk to Finn Agaard one afternoon for about an hour, very enlightening and had family friend who grew up in Africa.
They (Agaard and the friend) told me most people had a 9.3x62 and if they had a lion, leopard, elephant or cape buffalo problem they got a .404 Jeffery. Working folks who managed estates or even owned estates mostly could not afford fancy British calibers and rifles. Pre WWII, Mausers in 9.3x62 and .404 Jeffery were affordable and the ammo was affordable. After WWII the Winchester M 70 in .375 H&H Mag. became available during the late 1950's and the ammo was affordable so people had to adopt it in place of their 9.3x62's because ammo was becoming unavailable...then the .458 Win. came out and put the .404 Jeffery out of business for essentially the same reason.
Our family friend had to shoot marauding cape buffalo, elephant, lion and leopard etc. and used a 9.3x62 because he usually had it with him since it was light and handy during the day but took the .404 Jeffery when they had a problem animal or at night.
These animals ate the crops or cattle and were pests that had to be destroyed.
You shot accurately or were maimed or died.
Most everyone had to switch to the .375 because of economics, not because of choice.
There were rumors that elected officials who ran the game dept.'s were "encouraged" to adopt the .375 with gifts of free rifles and ammo and even women and strong drink, not because the 9.3x62 was inadequate in the hands of a competent hunter.
This is not to start a flame war but to help explain why the .375 H&H Mag. was adopted as the minimum caliber to hunt dangerous game...some countries even require a .400 minimum caliber.
Thanks
Art



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 20:35
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Most of the camp rifles at those game ranches are pretty beat up stuff. Sometimes the safeties don't work, etc.  Your travel agent person will know how to get your rifles into the country legally.  I would not want to use some old beater on an important hunt.

After seeing those videos I would definitely stay with the legal minimum of 375.  I know that some of those PH's do commit some illegal and unethical activities, but I would not want to fool around with unwise caliber choices.  After you get over there, the hunters will tell you about all the nefarious things they've done over the years, including actually shooting the game for some of these nimrods.   

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 21:02
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I have never heard that gulf. The .375 H&H works plain and simple. Mine works just fine on big critters.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 00:50
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IMHO the .375 H&H Mag. was the best solution, you could buy a reliable Winchester M 70, reasonable weight, at a very affordable price and get ammo.
The performance was superior to the 9.3x62 and very soon it was the most used caliber in Africa, with ammo available every where.
Once ammo was no longer made for the bigger British doubles and magazine rifles the replacement by a affordable magazine rifle was inevitable and Winchester's release of the .458 Win. Mag. was lucky timing on their part.
Fresh ammo worked and the M 70 was reliable.
The design of the .458 Win. Mag. really did not do well in the scalding temperatures of Africa because of raised pressures and powder compaction as the ammo aged, poor quality control later on and poor bullets did not help matters any but there was no alternative until the .458 Lott came on the scene.
Many game departments continued using the .404 Jeffery as long as they could get ammo, eventually, as the the rifles wore out and ammo got expensive they were replaced by the .375 H&H Mag. or the .458 Win. Mag.
With the availability of the .458 Lott a truly reliable magazine rifle is available that does not have to have the ammo babied.
Even a plain "working" double is expensive compared to a bolt gun and people had to buy what suited their economic circumstances.
Since ammo is available again for many of the large bore African calibers many PH's are once again using large bore magazines and doubles.
I have been lucky to talk to quite a few hunters and PH's over the last few years to try to get a better picture of the overall situation.
Again I have not been to Africa and do not want to start a flame war, the above is my considered opinion.
If anyone has experience or information I would be happy to see it here, we can all learn from each other...I learn from others and try to pass that learning on.
Art





Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 01:20
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Be very careful when booking a South African lion hunt. There are very few free roaming lions available to hunt, so mostly they are put and take hunts.
Lion breeding is big business in South Africa.
Our Govt has stepped in with some control measures regarding the minimum camp size, time the put animal has to be placed before hunting etc etc.
But lots of crap goes on.
Not my cup of tea at all I,m afraid.
 
Caliber.. the bigger the better, funny stuff happens with animals that have bigger teeth and claws then you have.
 
But yes, a 300Win Mag...375H&H etc will all put them down with that old one correctly placed shot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 15:26
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 I live where we see grizzly regularly. When I used killer (an 03A4 WWII sniper rifle) I felt a bit intimidated by those big bastards. When I ran  into an old sniper buddy who was sold on the 338 win mag. In his words the 338 is similar to a 375HH with the trajectory of an o6 and around 30lbs of recoil
on the dangerous end of the weapon is is 3900-4300 ftlbs of energy. He has killed Kodiak bears and grizzly's in Alaska at point blank to 457 yrds confirmed by a laser rangefinder. For me that's plenty for any critter in the USA as well as most of Africa.
 
mine is as follows. custem built on an A3 springfield action with a Timney trigger 15 OZ trigger pull, no take up or over-travel rings and bases by Leupold. A 4-12 Redfield revenge hunter reticle  and a  beautiful stock. Everything gone through and just like new. Best groups so far .680 I wouldn't feel underguned against a lion with a 250/275 grain bullet. I would have to pray to hit him solid in the lungs and heart ir in his noggin
SEMPER FI
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 17:17
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I'm sure a 338 would work fine on lions....except the 375 is the legal minimum for them just about everywhere. 
 
I wouldn't try a 338 on a buffalo or a rhino or an elephant.  But I'm sure it's been done.  Eleanor O'Connor shot an elephant in 1959 with a 30-06.  I know a guy who shot a leopard with a 22!!  I saw the hide. 
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