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SWFA Scope Scale Discussion Thread (2009) |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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I would also expect Nikko Sterling do be down a notch. I find it hare to believe nobody else thinks the trijicons are more deadly hunting scopes than the list shows them to be.
I guess the only half way decent scope I have is the old model Bushnell 4200 4-16x40 Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - April/06/2009 at 12:47 |
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Chris Farris
TEAM SWFA - Admin swfa.com Joined: October/01/2003 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 8024 |
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I hear you Wes and agree. Their recent expansion of the AccuPoint line is worthy of moving them up a notch. They were handicapped previoulsy by few offerings and only one reticle option that not too many
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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http://www.swfa.com/images/trijicon/binden.swf Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - April/07/2009 at 00:35 |
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cyborg
Optics God Gaseous Clay Joined: August/24/2007 Location: North Georgia Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
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Nah Wes.... we both know that your scopes are just fine. Again.... It's just the weight towards the Hunting applications, and the traditional choices for that application weighing in better.
Now a scope scale for Tactical that would be something of a completely different color. There would naturally be a number of changes.
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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The Accupoints may not be widely popular but I dont think a lot of people even know they are out there or the true advantage they seem to me to offer especially for hunting applications.
Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - April/07/2009 at 00:36 |
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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cyborg
Optics God Gaseous Clay Joined: August/24/2007 Location: North Georgia Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
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There are a few that think outside the box. I have a cousin that uses an EOTECH for hunting in the brush and swampy bottoms. There are really no set rules for what will work best for any single person. I use a Bushnell Trophy 1x28 for stalking.
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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other
An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects. OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause. Cyborg |
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John Barsness
Optics Optimist Joined: January/27/2009 Status: Offline Points: 785 |
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Chris, I have broken a lot of scopes through sheer use, probably because I use them a lot. Some have failed because they were put on "big" rifles. To me this generally means .300 magnum and larger, not because a .300 is really a big rifle bt because that's the line where problems with durability really start showing up. But I have also broken some scopes from sheer use on varmint rifles, and have had some scopes break on big game rifles chambered for cartridges smaller than .300 magnum. And no, not all of these were less-expensive scopes. In fact in my experience some inexpensive scopes are quite rugged, and some more expensive scopes aren't. This is why I think durability is just as important as optical quality. The return rate for SWFA would be one indicator, but some of the other ways I try to track durability are by talking to riflesmiths, hunting guides and sporting goods stores. Those sources generally encounter the same wide spectrum of durability, almost regardless of price. The "tactical" scope phenomenon of recent years has changed this some. There are some super-tough scopes out there, all with good-to-great optics. But in my experience Nightforce optics really aren't better than those on a Bushnell 4200, which costs maybe 20% as much. Instead, when we buy a Nightforce we are primarily paying for ruggedness. Obviously a Schmidt & Bender does have superb optics, along with rugged reliability, but some people will buy them primarily for the optics while others are at least as interested in the reliability. The other side of it is that fixed-power scopes still are somewhat more reliable than variables. I have hunted many places in North America and Africa with fixed powers and never had a breakdown with them, and never seen anybody else have a problem either. In the meantime, ALL the break-downs I've had and seen have been with variables. However, this assessment isn't just from my own experience. My riflesmith friends report the same thing, as do observant hunting guides. I've also talked to scope manufacturers who say that they get a much lower percentage of fixed power scopes in for breakdown repairs, even in super-tough tactical models. So how do we include this factor in the assessement? Or do we?
Maybe we need to set up categories of scopes, or rate optics, durability, etc. in different lists. But this creates other problems. If, for instance, we set up a tactical category, do we include the scopes called "tactical" scopes because they have tall adjustment turrets with the super-scopes like Nightforce?
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SamC
Optics Professional Joined: October/01/2007 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 902 |
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Thanks, great job as usual Chris and company! Two things though, first, I'm a bit surprised by the Conquest ranking, can you share your thinking with us and second, I noticed the Vortex Razor has a very good rating, are they now for sale and what was your thinking on that one as well?
Thanks,
Sam
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mastsif man
Optics Apprentice D. Overton Joined: March/25/2009 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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i have a question, why do atn scopes cost so much and are so crappy. i have never looked through one, but i have never heard anything good about them. your scale further reflects what i have heard. what gives. does anybody on the forum own one and what is their impression. alot of dough for nothing. its as though leapers started charging 500 bucks for their scopes. go figure. |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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That is a good question. I have had two of them and was not impressed at all. The one I sold 1 week after I got it, the other I gave to my cousin so he could scope his AR-15.
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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It would be interesting to know which most durable- top three to five most rugged scopes have the least repair issues and least return for cause.
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hunter12345
Optics Journeyman Joined: November/21/2007 Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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I have an ATN 5x36 for my AR.The scope cost $250 and works.My scope was made in the Ukrane.It has a bullet drop compensator etched rheostat.The scope is not as bright & clear as I would like it but I guess for the cost it should be a little more clearer.
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jantzer
Optics GrassHopper Joined: April/05/2009 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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One thing I know is I have had many of the middle range scopes on the list and still do.
The Monarch is no where near as good as the Conquest. The Sightron Big Sky is also a better scope, although it's rated lower. I would put the Big Sky up with the Conquest. I completely disagree it's lacking features. The 4.5-14 side focus model has better features than my Conquests and I like the ergonomics far better. It's a lot more compact, lighter, more adjustment range, better side focus, better rain coating etc. What more features can it have?
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mastsif man
Optics Apprentice D. Overton Joined: March/25/2009 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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i think in essence the ratings scale is supposed to be used as a rough guideline and not as a pure rule of thumb. even though we have sophisticate intruments to measure many parameters of rifle scopes, everbodys eyes are different as are their tastes in what they like. i do not think we could find anyone who completely agrees with the scale, but it basically sets a standard, so to speak by which on can be guided to hep purchase a scope, realizing there are crossovers.
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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thats exactly what the intent of this scale is too you hit it right on the nose. |
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mastsif man
Optics Apprentice D. Overton Joined: March/25/2009 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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i cannot spell.
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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Now that I had a chance to look at this thread, I have a few comments:
-My take on durability is pretty well known: if it does not hold zero, it is a paperweight rather than a scope. -Is mechanical quality/repeatability taken into account? (knobs, etc) -I see two scopes on the scale (Leica and Vortex Razor) that are not out on the market yet. I do not think they should be there until there are production samples. I do not doubt that those will be very good scopes, but you can't buy them yet. On some particular scopes: -I think Sightron S3 should be at least one notch higher (not sure what the reliability complaints are; I have not heard of any) -Sightron S1 should be one notch lower -Kahles does not currently have a US distributor. Are there any newly made Kahles scopes available in US? or is everyone just going through old inventory? -With Super Sniper scopes, I am a bit mixed, but I suppose if you take into account the lack of variety in this scope line, they are in the right place. -Nikon Monarch, I would put a step lower (I have been relatively underwhelmed by the new Monarch). With Monarch X, I do not have enough mileage to form an opinion. -I am not sure where Burris SixX scopes fit, since they are pretty new -Elite 4200 scopes (which I among my favourites) are comparatively underspecced. In the past their excellent price to preformance ratio really helped, but with price out of the equation, I wonder if they should be a step lower. For the most part, I am just "thinking out loud" here. ILya |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - April/18/2009 at 23:11 |
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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Trijicon Accupoint scopes are pretty nice, but they need a bit more variety of configurations. On one hand they make very useful reticles (although you pay for them). On the other they have there are very few reticle types available. Also there is very significant variation in eye relief with magnification which I found fairly uncomfortable (1.25-4x24 and 2.5-10x56 - more so than just about every other scope I have seen). 3-9x40, IMO, also needs an optical redesign. The new 1-4x24 and 5-20x50 seem like very nice scopes and if the other scopes in the line were brought up to the same level, Accupoint would definitely rank higher.
As it is, older Accupoint scopes have some weaknesses and newer Accupoint scopes just came out. Give it a little time. ILya |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - April/18/2009 at 23:13 |
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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