Swarovski Z6 V/S Zeiss Victory Diavari

I am currently in the process of building up a Remington Model 700 in .308 for big-game hunting & lots of range practice.  I am trying to make it an all around gun that can be used for many purposes.  Starting with a 700 LSS in .243 I am adding the following: 

     1.  Hart 24" fluted rifle barrel in .308.

     2.  Pillar bedding of the Remington Laminated stock.

     3.  Blueprinting of receiver & bolt.

     4.  Jewell trigger.

     5.  Scope?????

I have done a decent amount of research online and have narrowed my scope options down to two models, the Swarovski 1.7-10x42 Z6 and the New Zeiss 2.5-10x42 Victory Diavari. 

I was leaning towards the Swarovski until I found out that it really doesn't have a very good warranty (only 10 years and it appears to be somewhat limited in scope - pun not intended).  With a scope this expensive, it really is ridiculous to not have a lifetime warranty, IMO.  Everything else I like about it though.  A lot!

The Ziess looks good as well, but to my understanding this scope has the problem (as far as I am concerned) of the reticle enlarging as the magnification increases.  (Am I right about this?)  This wouldn't be as much of a problem in the field, but at the range when I am trying to shoot the top off of a bottle at 200 yards or shoot a small group at that distance, it would be.

I like both of these scopes because of their wide magnification range, reasonably light weight, and because they can both be mounted in low rings.  Can anyone advise me on my concerns here?  If neither of these scopes will fit my needs for the reasons mentioned above, do you have any recommendations for scopes that would?  Thanks.

Hello Senewell, welcome to the OT.

I agree that the 10yr warranty does not do this scope justice in relations to its price. The Z6 offers a lower power at the bottom end of the range and a slightly expanded field of view and a rear focal plane, these are desirable fetures

to some hunters. I like front focal plane reticles and the best low light glass possible, these are two features that the Z6 does not posess, so in relation to my prefrences in a hunting scope my choice would be to sacrifice the lower power advantage on the bottom end and a slight field of view and gain better glass and the front focal plane reticle.

Both scopes are very nice and would make a exellent addition to any rifle. Good luck on your hunt and keep us posted.

I'm not too concearned with the 1.7 v/s 2.5 power diference on the bottem end of the magnification range.  Maybe if I were putting it on a Lever gun.  If I were doing that then the Swarovski 1-6 would be the clear choice for me, except for the warranty.

If the Zies were cranked up to 10x, how much of the target could I expect to be obscured by the #8 reticle at 100 Yards in inches,  or in MOA?

senewell,

Just a suggestion, but before I did #3, I would seriously consider just buying a "Predator" custom action from Stiller Precision Firearms.  Stiller/Viper is one of the big names among competitive shooters.  The Predator is a direct, drop in replacement for the Rem700, yet is better made, doesn't require any blueprinting, costs about the same and in some cases, less than the work required to true up the Remington, and will get much better resale value should you ever decide to sell the rifle!

http://www.viperactions.com/actions/predator_detail.htm

Again, it has the exact same footprint as the Rem700, so it will drop in to your existing stock with no modifications.  It uses the same trigger assy as the Remington.  You will also generally receive it quicker than the turn-around time for blueprinting the Rem action!  It also looks cooler!  In short, there's really no downside.

I feel you really couldn't go wrong with either of those scopes.  I have no experience with the Z6, but own 3 Swarovski scopes and love them.  A buddy of mine has the Zeiss 3-12X56 VM/V and it's a wonderful scope.  Every scope I've seen from this series has been spectacular.

Trinidad wrote: Set on 10x at 100 with  the number 8 I would estimate about 4MOA.

That seems like a lot when you are trying to shoot sub MOA groups.  Just out of curiosity, why would you prefer this type of reticle magnification? What are the advantages?  Just curious.  Maybe I am missing something.  Thanks.

Here is some shooting at the range I recently did with a 2.5-10 S&B set on 6x at 100M, this is a 3 shot group with a model 70 sporter taper super grade.

I own a 2.5-10x50 Diavari & I can't complain about its performance & warranty.

The thing that I really love about the scope is its light weight & compact. Great for stand hunting or stalking plus the low light performance is great.

Just my 2 cents.

Trinidad wrote: I do not feel sub MOA groups are important in a hunting situation. I prefer to be able to see my reticle in the poorest light and have a fast aim at the target, to me having a front focal plane allows me to adjust this accordinly. I also do not hunt with a higher power very often, my scope is set at 6x and rarely used at 10x. I am not a varmint hunter only medium to large game. I will not hunt anything smaller than a deer or boar.

I totally agree with you in regard to hunting situations.  That is a remarkable group that you shot by the way.  When you say 4 MOA would be blocked at 10x, that would indicate ~ 4" at 100 yards, ~8" at 200 yards, and ~16" at 400 yards.  Am I correct in this assessment?  If not, what would the actual numbers be in inches?  A high percentage of the shooting that I will be doing with this gun will be at the range, and I will quite likely be shooting at very small targets at long ranges to test my personal accuracy.  I am somewhat concerned about obscuring small targets if the reticle gets too large.

You are correct on your calculations, for your main intended aplication you are better off with a rear focal plane scope. Kahles makes some very nice scopes that will better suit you in my opinion for example the CSX or you can go with the Z6. Best of luck and thank you for the compliment.

http://www.kahles.at/index.php?sprache=1&menu=18

http://www.riflescopes.com/products/51827/kahles_2.5-10x50_h elia_csx_30mm_riflescope.htm

You may also like the CL, its a nice side focus 1" model with a RFP,with or  without Multi-Zero, your preferance.

http://www.swfa.com/pc-1474-665-kahles-3-10x50-helia-cl-rifl escope.aspx

The big point with the Z6 is the low magnification, and if you don't need that I would prefer a Zeiss.

The first focal plane is in my opinion a big advantage and notiing to be sorry for.

If your drop the no8 reticle and go for no 11 instead you won't have any problems to aim as extremely small objects.

Zeiss offers BDC as original item for all their scopes, and if you are into long range hunting or shooting the BDC with reticle no11 is great.

Regards Technika

Trinidad wrote: You are correct on your calculations, for your main intended aplication you are better off with a rear focal plane scope. Kahles makes some very nice scopes that will better suit you in my opinion for example the CSX or you can go with the Z6. Best of luck and thank you for the compliment.   http://www.kahles.at/index.php?sprache=1&menu=18   http://www.riflescopes.com/products/51827/kahles_2.5-10x50_h elia_csx_30mm_riflescope.htm

Those are all interesting looking scopes.  Does Kahles have a lifetime waranty?  Do they have a reputation for good customer service?

Yes and Yes, top shelf products for shure.

http://www.kahles.at/index.php?sprache=1&direct=news& ;news_id=137

www.technika.nu wrote: The big point with the Z6 is the low magnification, and if you don't need that I would prefer a Zeiss. The first focal plane is in my opinion a big advantage and notiing to be sorry for.   If your drop the no8 reticle and go for no 11 instead you won't have any problems to aim as extremely small objects.   Zeiss offers BDC as original item for all their scopes, and if you are into long range hunting or shooting the BDC with reticle no11 is great.   Regards Technika

+1, Great point Hakan on the number 11 reticle.

oldguns wrote: Why is it when I look at the Zeiss website I dont find a reticle #11 listed for Diavari??

Here is the current lineup of reticles for production scopes in the US, this may differ from production scopes in europ,

I recall Hakan mentioning he had his instaled at the factory. I would recommend you to give Zeiss a call and they will lead you in the direction of obtaining the 11 in a Diavari. Exellent reticle, I had a thicker varient of this reticle, the #1 in a fixed power S&B.

http://www.zeiss.com/c1256bcf0020be5f/Contents-Frame/ec215ec 620626f1e852571d700377d7e

The link in not working properly, the 11 is only available in the current classic production model not the diavari acording to the chart. You can see this by clicking on the victory then clicking on available reticles at the very bottom. These charts have been known to be wrong brfore though on small technicalities. I would call for the best

info on the current options.

OK,here is the latest chart and US production reticles.

	All Reticles
	Victory Diarange Plane Illuminated reticles 3 - 12 - 56 T* 2 60 - 66 - 70 - 77 Victory Varipoint Plane Illuminated reticles 1,1 - 4 x 24 T* 2 0 1,5 - 6 x 42 T* 1 (+2) 0 - 54 - 56 2,5 - 10 x 42 T* 1 (+2) 0 - 54 - 56 2,5 - 10 x 50 T* 1 (+2) 0 - 54 - 56 3 - 12 x 56 T* 1 (+2) 0 - 54 - 56 Victory Diavari Plane Illuminated reticles Standard reticles 1,5 - 6 x 42 T* 1 4 - 8 2,5 - 10 x 42 T* 1 4 - 8 - 42 2,5 - 10 x 50 T* 1 40 - 44 - 60 - 66 4 - 8 - 42 3 - 12 x 56 T* 1 40 - 43 - 44 - 60 - 66 4 - 8 - 42 - 43 6 - 24 x 56 T* 2 40 - 43 - 63 4 - 43 - 61 6 - 24 x 72 T* 2 40 - 43 - 63 Classic Diavari Plane Illuminated reticles Standard reticles 1,1 - 4 x 24 T* 2 2 - 4 - 8 - 11 - 25 1,5 - 6 x 42 T* 1 1 - 4 - 8 - 11 2,5 - 10 x 50 T* 1 40 - 44 - 60 - 66 1 - 4 - 8 - 11 - 42 3 - 12 x 56 T* 1 40 - 44 - 60 - 66 1 - 4 - 8 - 11 Classic Diatal Illuminated reticles Standard reticles 6 x 42 T* 1 - 4 - 8 - 42 7 x 50 T* 40 - 44 - 60 - 66 8 x 56 T*   Post Options Post Reply Quote Narrow Gap Report Post    Thanks(0)      Posted: February/27/2007 at 19:19 Narrow Gap Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics Apprentice Joined: August/16/2006 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 130 Zeiss will install the #11 Reticle in the Zeiss Victory Diavari if you special order, I say this because Zeiss did this for me. My local sporting goods store that I bought the Zeiss from called Zeiss and had the #11 Reticle installed for me. It took about 2 weeks for me to get the scope in my hands after the order was made.   Post Options Post Reply Quote senewell Report Post    Thanks(0)      Posted: February/27/2007 at 22:17 senewell Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Optics GrassHopper Joined: February/27/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 35 The Kahles is a bit bigger than I prefer, but I am intrigued by the multizero feature.  If they made this scope in a 42-44mm size with 10x magnification on the high end, it would be perfect.  It looks like no one has exactly what I am looking for though.  The Swarovski would be it but for the warranty, the Zeiss would be it but for the reticle, and the Kahles would be it but for the size.  I guess I'll just have to decide which desired feature I am willing to live without. The size of the scope is important to me because the Remington laminated stock on my gun, which I really like, puts my eye at a naturally low site point.  Anything other than a low mounted scope will result in an awkward shooting position for me. The new Leupold VX-7L is interesting to a degree.  It looks kind of funny, but I could live with that if it works well.  My main concerns with it are weight, large variable eye relief, and price.  The mounting point and reticle choices are just right though.  It would seem odd to pay a Zeiss price for a Leupold scope.  I drive a Ford Mustang and love it.  I've made a lot of modifications to it and it will haul arse. But, if Ford was charging Porsche  prices for it, I would probably just get a Porsche.  If anyone has tried one of these scopes I would very much like to hear about it though.  It may be just the ticket. Let me describe my perfect scope and maybe someone will come up with some more recommendations:     1.  Low mounting point.     2.  Decent eye relief, preferably somewhat non-variable.     3.  2nd plane reticle.     4.  Magnification range of <= 3.5 on the low end to >= 10 on the high end.     5.  Lifetime warranty.     6.  Reasonable weight.  ~16oz The Swarovski is perfect except for the warranty.  Maybe I will just take a chance on it. My immigration policy: "Good fences equal good neighbors," and lining the border with snipers equals no immigration problem. Post Options Post Reply Quote oldguns Report Post    Thanks(0)      Posted: February/28/2007 at 05:29 oldguns Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics GrassHopper Joined: February/17/2007 Status: Offline Points: 9 senewell..before you jump on a "Z6" Swaro..be sure to look through their scopes. I was about to buy one last weekend until i looked through the Z6!! The plex is a FINE PLEX in my opinion. I didnt like the 4a. I didn't buy one!! I also looked through a new Zeiss Diavari...awesome ..but i didnt like the first plane reticle(#8). I never looked at the #11 reticle. Good luck in your choice. Edited by oldguns   Post Options Post Reply Quote RifleDude Report Post    Thanks(0)      Posted: February/28/2007 at 07:59 RifleDude Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MODERATOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 15135 I wouldn't let the warranty sway you away from the Swaro if that is what you really want.  It will be a fine scope, and if it survives past 10 years, barring dropping it off a cliff or some other freak occurrence, it will most likely last several lifetimes.  I agree with you about keeping mounting height as low as possible. Ted Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. Post Options Post Reply Quote oldguns Report Post    Thanks(0)      Posted: February/28/2007 at 17:12 oldguns Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Optics GrassHopper Joined: February/17/2007 Status: Offline Points: 9 I have looked at the Zeiss reticle #11 trying to understand how this would be so precise for long range hunting and target shooting. I beleive you people beleive in it. I just don't understand how. I see NO precise aiming point except for the very top of the vertical post. 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