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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2008 at 16:50
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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A question for Koshkin or anyone who "knows."

I've talked to several people over the past few weeks/months who have told me Swaro is optically better because they use crystal rather than glass.  I've done some looking around and find that the definition usually hinges on lead; however, HD or ED glass usually contain lead or some other similar element - whereas crystal is defined as containing lead always.  What is glass with lead: crystal? What is glass with fluorite: glass?


Please give me a working definition of crystal and glass, then it should be obvious whether Swaro uses one or the other.

Koshkin, feel free to include a joke, I'll try to "get it" thjis time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2008 at 18:22
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After last fiasco, you want to waste another joke on you???!!!!!  How many jokes do you think I have, for god's sake? I am practically out of jokes for 2008 already.

Anyhow, whoever told you that is probably not very well informed.

Swarovski use glass just like everybody else.  They are very good in using it and it is very high quality glass.

Now glass is not a crystal.  It is an amorphous solid.  A crystal, quite simply, is something with crystalline atomic structure.  Swarovski does make a lot of quartz and similar crystals (for jewelry and things like that), but that has little to do with their sporting optics.  Some crystals are indeed used as special lens elements (Calcium Fluoride for example), but that is rare in sporting optics due to their fragile and hard-to-work-with nature.

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2008 at 21:00
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Although Swarovski does indeed make crystal, their optics manufacturing has no relationship to the crystal manufacturing.  They do not make their own lenses for their optics.  I don't know if it holds true for all their optics, but for at least some of their optics, they get their glass from Schott, like many other European optics manufacturers. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2008 at 21:14
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That is not strictly speaking correct.

Schott does not make lenses for anyone (to the best of my knowledge).  The make raw glass and sell it to people who then shape it, grind it, etc.  For some rare shapes they might make a lens via injection molding, but it still has to be polished.

Basically what I am trying to say is that glass-making and lens-making are two different things and Schott is a glass maker.  Swaro makes at least some of their own lenses.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2008 at 21:29
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Quite clear, kinda.  So glass is an amorphous solid but crystal is a crystalline structure.  Saying something is an amorphous solid, does that imply it cannot have crystalline structure? "Amorphous" deals with shape, not atomic structure or composition, right?


I think I kinda get it, it ain't that important.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2008 at 22:08
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

That is not strictly speaking correct.

Schott does not make lenses for anyone (to the best of my knowledge).  The make raw glass and sell it to people who then shape it, grind it, etc.  For some rare shapes they might make a lens via injection molding, but it still has to be polished.

Basically what I am trying to say is that glass-making and lens-making are two different things and Schott is a glass maker.  Swaro makes at least some of their own lenses.

ILya
 
Understand.  Did not intend to imply that they got finished lenses from Schott.  In this case, I was using "lenses" and "glass" interchangeably, as my point relative to this topic is that there is nothing unique about the glass Swaro uses compared to many of their European competitors.  The quality of their glass grinding, polishing, and coating is undoubtedly high, but they don't use any "special" glass formulation that isn't also used by other manufacturers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2008 at 08:54
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crystal structures have organized, repeating, geometric molecular structures while glasses don't, some crystals can exist as polymorphic, or in several forms depending on the "precipitaing" conditions. thus ionic repeating structures are known as salts, while somet crystals like covalent bonded carbons repeating structures can be either diamonds or buckyballs. thus water when frozen can have several rhombic forms and clear as crystal and smooth as glass.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2008 at 09:03
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On a more technical level, glass rarely if ever rotates a plane of polarized light, while crystals can be identifed by how much the plane is rotated, and the device used to measure the plane of rotation contains lenses of "glass" . Heavy molecular structures are added to glasses to absorb and reflect light in different wavelengths, because they all contain unsaturated pairs of electrons in their outer orbitals, lead is used because its cheap, thus swaro crystal has bluish hue, while waterford is more orange to red, all scotchs be equal.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2008 at 10:43
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 Hey Ilya .... here's another one for you ..... a post on another forum said some companies use ground diamonds in their composition of lenses ... I think they use the company hype of " diamond lenses " Niko and the named Burris Black Diamond .... I can't find the link now but laughed my rear off reading that post . Some conclusions ... some make and tell innocent folks as fact . He got real PO'd when I called him on it . I'd love to know what they'd have to use to grind them ..... 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2008 at 12:28
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Originally posted by mercenary1947 mercenary1947 wrote:

 Hey Ilya .... here's another one for you ..... a post on another forum said some companies use ground diamonds in their composition of lenses ... I think they use the company hype of " diamond lenses " Niko and the named Burris Black Diamond .... I can't find the link now but laughed my rear off reading that post . Some conclusions ... some make and tell innocent folks as fact . He got real PO'd when I called him on it . I'd love to know what they'd have to use to grind them ..... 


I've heard that BS a few times.

On a separate note, there is such a thing as diamnd film and it is possible to apply it onto surfaces (although expensive).  It would not do jack for lenses, but that is a separate story.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2008 at 12:31
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Quite clear, kinda.  So glass is an amorphous solid but crystal is a crystalline structure.  Saying something is an amorphous solid, does that imply it cannot have crystalline structure? "Amorphous" deals with shape, not atomic structure or composition, right?


I think I kinda get it, it ain't that important.


That is right.  An amorphous solid, by definition does not have a crystalline structure.  For all practical purpose an amorphous solid is a very thick liquid.  Glass flows over time.  If you measure the thickness of a glass window pane a few times over a course of several years you will note that the bottom is getting thicker and the top sis getting thinner, although very slowly.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/2008 at 22:37
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Quite clear, kinda.  So glass is an amorphous solid but crystal is a crystalline structure.  Saying something is an amorphous solid, does that imply it cannot have crystalline structure? "Amorphous" deals with shape, not atomic structure or composition, right?


I think I kinda get it, it ain't that important.


That is right.  An amorphous solid, by definition does not have a crystalline structure.  For all practical purpose an amorphous solid is a very thick liquid.  Glass flows over time.  If you measure the thickness of a glass window pane a few times over a course of several years you will note that the bottom is getting thicker and the top sis getting thinner, although very slowly.

ILya


So, over the course of time, would that not be true of the glass in rifle scopes also?  And how would the affect the image, clarity, and resolution?



Edited by helo18 - September/06/2008 at 22:38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2008 at 02:41
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Yes that would be true for rifle scope glass as well.  However, since the lenses in a scope ar emuch smaller and have a lot less mass and since they are not always oriented the same way, the effect is negligible. 

On the other hand, if you put your scope on he shelf and wait for several hundred years, the image will probably deteriorate a little.

ILya
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