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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2007 at 01:07
wjr1984 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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i'm about to buy a new AR chambered in .308.  it's going to have a flat top receiver and a 20" barrel.  targets that could be engaged could be anywhere from 50 yards all the way out to several hundred yards(aka policing/swat situations for the closer distances and just plinking on the farther).  what suggestions can be made in regards to what power to choose? 

 

also, what brands would be my best option?  thanks to a financial problem in my state, funding has been cut slightly so i will purchasing this myself.  i like the prices of the barska swat but haven't found much info on them.  does anyone have any comments on the fullfield II or tacticals by burris?  i've also read some good reviews on the bushnell 4200s, comments?  super snipers have also come up in some conversations as being good.

 

finally, what height on rings will i need if it still has the A2 front site incase i don't get a gas block with folding backup sites?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2007 at 08:28
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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I have a few comments on the scope but am more curious about the rifle.  I own a Springfield SOCOM and it is a great gun.  I hear good things about Armalite AR-10s as well as the Bushmaster .308 - but the real star on the horizon is the Rock River Arms .308 either out now or coming soon.  I could not more highly recommend the SOCOM, given what you will be doing.

 

And for the scope, my recommendation would be price-dependant.  You mention the Barska SWAT so I can guess at the ballpark.

 

First, you do not want a high-magnification scope for 50 yard encounters.  And, you don't need magnification to engage targets at 200-300 yards.  Hell, in the Marine Corps we shot 500 targets with poodle-shooters (aka, M16.)

 

My first recommendation would be either  ACOG or Aimpoint: since the weapon will be used in life and death situations and probably in some low-light situations, lit reticle is important.  And I would recommend no magnification, but others will disagree.  I have the Aimpoint on my SOCOM and can easily hit plates and balloons out to 300 yards.

 

Another option of which I hear good things but have no direct experience, the Millett 1-4x24 DM.  It will give you good up-close and good intermediate range.  I've seen pics through the optic and wasn't impressed with the noticability of the glass.  It is an option, some say a great scope, but my first recommendation - from experience in the field -  would be the Aimpoint, or possibly EoTech

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2007 at 08:56
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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the ring height dependence is based on how high you want the cheek weld not the front site. it will not be visible as the scope is not focused on it. high rings at least if a 50 mm bell, and they will almost not be high enough. if you want the center of the scope to be as high asthe carrying handle on a ar 15.  the 308 acog, (use one an eagle) has somewhat short eye relief. and the acog works better on lower recoil weapons. you are talking professional grade here and barska doesn't cut it. in your price range the eotech is the best. 8 inch plates can easily be hit at 200 yds and up to 300 depending on how long you have to get the shot off. At around $600 you should look at the USO 1x4, IOR short, and this grade of scopes/illuminated reticle group.

Edited by Dale Clifford
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2007 at 10:53
wjr1984 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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actually it is most likely going to be the new rra.  i'm one half of a two man team and my partner is using a 700 chambered in .300 mag but the department requested that each team have a longe range rifle capable of a faster rate of fire hince the shopping.  for our secondary, we each have an ar-15 with "kitty kat" 7" uppers by dpms. those are topped with eotechs and are nice but with the barrel assemblies, range is limited.

anyways, rancid- which series in the aimpoint are you talking about?  the comp series or the 9000?  also, with the short barrels of our secondaries i've never tried using eotechs at any real distances.  mainly i've always associated them for use in cqc.  would they be good at covering the distances we might be subject too?  granted through my short career of only 7 hostil situations and dozens of training senarios we've only had to set up at around 150 yards tops.  still, it's not something i want to send an errant shot to. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2007 at 13:18
Johnw View Drop Down
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As a foprmer LEO sniper myself, and after you further clarifying your intent, I would say something like a Bushnell 4200 2.5x10x50. Heck, I even thinnk the age old 3x9 would be fine.

 

Good luck...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2007 at 21:13
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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My take on this is go with either the Rock River .308 or if you have the funds to do so get a GAPrecision AR-10

http://www.gaprecision.com/content/ar10.php  This is true sniper quality.

As for scopes this is a sniper rifle so I'm thinking:

LEU60030 Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope                                                                           Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • 1st Focal Plane Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $1,224.95
More Info...

OR

LEU56994 Leupold 1.5-5x20 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope                                                                            Leupold 1.5-5x20 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated Special Purpose Reticle
  • 30mm
  • M2 Target Knobs
SWFA: $849.95
More Info...

As for the short kit kat uppers I would rather see a 16 in barrel to gain a little more velocity preferably one with a vortex flash suppresson on it.  The U.S. Optics scopes are awesome but I would rather see you put more in the rifle and go with a GAP gun that will provide you more accuracy.  GAP does keep some US Optics scopes on hand for LE.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2007 at 21:27
RONK View Drop Down
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  • Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

    the ring height dependence is based on how high you want the cheek weld not the front site. it will not be visible as the scope is not focused on it. high rings at least if a 50 mm bell, and they will almost not be high enough. 

 Unless you have an unusual facial structure, even High rings may be too low to allow you to see through any scope on a flattop,  unless you add a set of riser blocks of some sort, and medium (?) rings. The comb of the stock is just too high . A cleaner setup that works great for me is to mount Badger Ultra -High rings directly to the flattop reciever.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2007 at 01:08
wjr1984 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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imaginaryfrnd-
my partner will still be carrying the 700 and i have never seen him shoot a grouping larger than an inch in any condition so we will still have the precision.  additionally, the reason he is the designated sniper is because during training, my average grouping was just a 1/4" over an inch.  in terms of the better marksman, he is better but i posted the numbers to show i can handle a rifle.  the semi auto request by the department heads is for any follow up shot, additional hostiles, distractions, etc.  also, the kitty kats are nice because it offers an extremely compact package(6 position car stocks also) that allows us extra space in tight quarters or mainly for when we're laying belly down for long periods of time with our ar's resting on our backs, it allows less chance for extra rifle to slide on the floor cutting down chances for noise.  so fear not in terms of precision.  thanks for the insight to scope selection also.

ronk-
the rifle i will be getting is going to have just a gas block with a picatinny rail for back up flip up sites.  all the other ar's i've worked with have had the standard post up front which either made me go over the top or as in eotechs, slightly under center for back up sites.  without anything in the way, would i just need risers high enough to get the scope off the reciever? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2007 at 19:05
RONK View Drop Down
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Originally posted by wjr1984 wjr1984 wrote:

imaginaryfrnd-
my partner will still be carrying the 700 and i have never seen him shoot a grouping larger than an inch in any condition so we will still have the precision.  additionally, the reason he is the designated sniper is because during training, my average grouping was just a 1/4" over an inch.  in terms of the better marksman, he is better but i posted the numbers to show i can handle a rifle.  the semi auto request by the department heads is for any follow up shot, additional hostiles, distractions, etc.  also, the kitty kats are nice because it offers an extremely compact package(6 position car stocks also) that allows us extra space in tight quarters or mainly for when we're laying belly down for long periods of time with our ar's resting on our backs, it allows less chance for extra rifle to slide on the floor cutting down chances for noise.  so fear not in terms of precision.  thanks for the insight to scope selection also.

ronk-
the rifle i will be getting is going to have just a gas block with a picatinny rail for back up flip up sites.  all the other ar's i've worked with have had the standard post up front which either made me go over the top or as in eotechs, slightly under center for back up sites.  without anything in the way, would i just need risers high enough to get the scope off the reciever? 

 

  Getting the gas-block rail and fold-down iron front sight is a great idea, but only if you couple it with a back-up rear sight, of course. The mounting height issue I addressed earlier had more to do with making sure you can see through the scope at all while in a shooting position. I'm a big proponent of scopes mounted low enough to require you to settle your cheek snugly down onto the stock to see a good image. But because the AR platform has such a high comb in relation to the bore, the rings need to be taller than those necessary for most other rifle platforms. Badger"s Ultra-high rings are perfect for my flattop for most (adult men) who have fired it. I think I had Weaver's High rings on it before that, and you really had to mash your face down onto the comb to see through the scope tube



Edited by RONK
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2007 at 22:05
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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RONK is correct regarding the selection of rings :

30610 Badger Ordnance Maximized Scope 30mm Rings                                                                              Badger Ordnance Maximized Scope 30mm Rings
  • Matte
  • Ultra High (AR-15) (1.4")
SWFA: $167.95
More Info... Buy Now

If you pay close attention these say AR-15 ---  for good reason --- They are the correct height for that application.

There are alternative set ups that can be used though.

ARMS38EX556 ARMS #38EX Swan Sleeve                                                                                                  ARMS #38EX Swan Sleeve
  • Matte
  • Flip Up Rear Sight Included
  • AR-10 (5.56)
  • 8.460"
SWFA: $164.95
More Info... Buy Now

The Swan Sleeve system acts as a riser allowing standard height rings to be used and additionally providing a backup iron sight assembly. My comment regarding the kit kat system was viewig it as a stand alone system not as a back up to a sniper platform, I personally prefer a Glock 22 for a backup to a sniper platform but having been top pistol shot with each of the agencies I have worked for contributes to my confidence in that system.  My bigest concern with the kit kat is the loss of velocity take a very light bullet and push it slower than you are expecting it to go results in significantly less knockdown. Id rather have a nice slow HEAVY 230 GRAIN 45acp  or at least a 40 S&W when it gets up close and personal. Could be a better choice would be a pistol grip 12 ga with the barrel cut at the end of the 5 shot mag tube, we used those for an entry gun in San Antonio in the 80s. There is just something about a shotgun that gains compliance although I still perfer the pistols when it comes time to shoot CQB  I just move faster with them. As for the semi auto the whole reason for redundency is in case something happens primary sniper is KIA, primary sniper rifle fails to work or is dropped or damaged and can not be used. Redundency is a good thing but dont sell yourself short using a better rifle may make you the better of the two shooters go with the GAPrecision trust George to steer you the right way. I would rather have a GAP gun with a 299. Super Sniper 10x  than a  20 in DPMS with a high dollar optic.  As for scopes Leupold is most common in LE but the Super Sniper is a very reliable scope however 10x can be a little much for the distances you will be working. The 6x42 IOR tactical or their 2.5- 10 x 42 are worth a look also. There is also a lot to be said for the Aimpoint Comp M4 at the distances you will be working.

 

 



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2007 at 23:20
wjr1984 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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my apologies for the mixup, when talking about flip up sites, i just assume the rear one is a given.

we do have side arms also, in 40 s&w of all things and we tried for .45 acp, "permission denied".  the reason we pushed for larger secondaries was just a nervous tendency and the belief that undergunned equals dead.  i spent 15 months overseas working for a private company contracted out (call me what you please, i've actually gotten used to "missionary") before going into law enforcement once i got back home and that included some time in a few sandboxes.  my partner is former military and spent two tours in iraq so he's experienced similar conditions.  a favorite tactic of our oposition was to create a large disturbance such as an ied or mass shooting and then to lay low while waiting for forces to show up at which point they have a perfect setup for an ambush.  i lost a good friend that way and ever since then, i've opted for something with bigger clips.  it was a mix up and a huge clusterf**k and he left hq with just his m14, three extra mags for that, and a 1911 with four extra mags. im not saying something that serious will happen here stateside but there are a lot of sick twisted people out there who can conjure up stuff like that but sometimes "it" can hit the fan.  from sitting down and talking with older officers, a lot of them have good reasons to support that "us vs them" mentality

by all means, i'm not disregaurding what you say.  you're older and wiser and have been there, done that and well, i'm still young and dumb and hump'n in two long guns and a pistol doesn't seem over reactive.  and who knows, within about two weeks i'll have it all set up and if i'm still able to flow with it and work well, the other ar with the short barrel might find itself left in the trunk.


Edited by wjr1984
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 09:03
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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My thought on the short barreled shotgun cut at the end of the 5 shot mag tube with a pistol grip only is that it makes a much more compact package that eaven the shortest AR and is designed for very close range which is where you would otherwise be using that kit kat set up but there is a  big difference between the effect of 2 3/4  #4 buck VS a 55 to 75 gr .223.  Side note Federal has some 75 gr .223 that is designed for Tactical use  e-mail   kent.snyder@atk.com ask him for law enforcement samples of the Federal Ammo you wish to test in each caliber you use also ask him about balistic jell testing that Federal may be doing in your area they come out to Iowa Law Enforcement Academy all the time and do testing for the firearms instructor schools.  ATK owns CCI, Speer, Federal, etc.

Of special note BATF permission for short barreled shotgun paperwork should be done before cutting down one of the riot guns.  You should be able to sew a cordura nylon pocket to lower leg and use a velcro tiedown to secure it then carry it chamber empty mag loaded with 4. You need to be able to release it from the holster assemby with one hand. Also could rig it to carry horizontal across lower back or vertical with grip above  and behind the strong shoulder  which ever is more comfortable- This is a back up CQB very close range system only good across the room but it will definately stop the bad guys and the mere sight of it is likely to intimidate a surrender much more so than any M4.  In the law enforcement situations you will encounter the big difference from the sand box is that the bad guys are less likely to have additional support personnel so the amount of ammo needed is likely to be less but eaven it the 70 the saying on the street was "real policemen carry an extra box of bullets in their briefcase".  I am a strong believer in carrying additional ammo.  I think that once you step up to a GAP AR-10 or a Rock River LAR .308 it will be so much gun the kit kat will no longer be the best backup. Actually you would be better off with an AK in a short pistol version than the kit kat as the bullet is heavier.

We had guys with a .38 chief special 2 in that couldnt shoot through a windshied where the same bullet from a 4 in would so it takes some barrel length to burn the powder to gain velocity and the lighter the bullet the more critical the velocity is. There is still a lot to be said for a Winchester model 94 in a 44 mag under 100 yds eaven though it's a cowboy gun - light weight compact quick rifle with large heavy slow bullet knocks things down, same same plus some for a Marlin in 45-70 not traditional LE guns but boy do they knock stuff down, The .223 was designed to kill a 17 lb animal so you will just love what at .308 does.

For additional backup the Rem 870 is idiot proof and  can be made compact plus you can use specialty rounds gas, taser etc if needed and your dept probably has more of them than they need already on hand.

 



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 21:24
sandsock View Drop Down
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I'm toying with sending my 870 back to Hans Vang and have the 14" job done after the paperwork is done but can't seem to find the time.  A fellow military member went to the same Class III dealer that I've been talking to and bought a short barrel Saiga 12 ga with folding stock...that was an impressive number...but I don't suppose your dept would warm up to a AK-based shotgun.  For a duty shotgun, I am a big fan of Vangcomp.
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